Victorian Wall Decoration?

kisak · 27th January 2009, 09:57 PM

Expanding on what Manuel said, this type of blade is seen on a number of Swedish heavy cavalry swords from the 18th century (and a few cavalry swords from the early parts of said century as well). To provide some examples I'm attaching a close-up of an m/1773 (colour), and a scanned full-length shot of an m/1775 for Småland's cavalry regiment (b&w).

These two would have slightly shorter blades than Coleman's, but there are other, similar models with blades matching very well (m/1761 and m/1778 for Västgöta' cavalry regiment, and then of course there's the possibility of an officer custom-ordering something). I have pretty much no idea at all if, and then to what extent, this blade shape saw use outside of Sweden.

As for the overall package, it looks very much to me like assembled in the 19th century as a decorative.

Robert · 28th January 2009, 12:03 AM

Kisak, Thank you very much for posting the pictures of the two swords. I do agree that the blades do look strikingly similar and this could very possible be a Swedish blade . Could you please tell me where the stampings on their blades are as I have been over and over this blade with no luck finding any markings at all. If most blades of this age were marked (I supposed they were ?) maybe if I knew were to look and with better light and a magnifying glass I might be able to find something. The other thing that I'm wondering about is the length of the hilt on my sword. The sword handles very well one handed but with the length of the hilt a two handed grip is very comfortable and greatly improves how it handles. I know absolutely nothing about this type of sword so everything I say is pure speculation on my part. Another question is would they have gone to all the trouble of putting the engraving on the pommel and collars if this was just to hang on a wall? I am only asking questions to learn, I am not disputing anything that has been offered in reference to this sword as I know things were done quite differently even 50 years ago. Again I thank you for your interest and help in trying to identifying this .

Robert

Atlantia · 28th January 2009, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Kisak, Thank you very much for posting the pictures of the two swords. I do agree that the blades do look strikingly similar and this could very possible be a Swedish blade . Could you please tell me where the stampings on their blades are as I have been over and over this blade with no luck finding any markings at all. If most blades of this age were marked (I supposed they were ?) maybe if I knew were to look and with better light and a magnifying glass I might be able to find something. The other thing that I'm wondering about is the length of the hilt on my sword. The sword handles very well one handed but with the length of the hilt a two handed grip is very comfortable and greatly improves how it handles. I know absolutely nothing about this type of sword so everything I say is pure speculation on my part. Another question is would they have gone to all the trouble of putting the engraving on the pommel and collars if this was just to hang on a wall? I am only asking questions to learn, I am not disputing anything that has been offered in reference to this sword as I know things were done quite differently even 50 years ago. Again I thank you for your interest and help in trying to identifying this .

Robert

Hi Robert.

Its difficult to judge these swords.
Manuel and Kisak certainly seem to have found the type of blade.
I would be very interested to see if someone can provide some exact measurements for comparison.

Its certainly an unusual combination, as the handle is unusually long but is swept hilt style and the blade is unusually heavy and of course the swept hilt was long out of favour by the 18th/19THc.

I'd be tempted to take the story you were told at face value and think its a rather strange colonial hybrid.
Its a strange one to label.

I just noticed you mention silver/aluminium paint on the hilt when you got it?
Is that whats in the crevases of the hilt bars?

One thought.
If the blade is a reuse from one of these military swords then the tang must have been extended or it doesn't go to the end of the long handle.

No movement on the pommel is there?

kisak · 28th January 2009, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I would be very interested to see if someone can provide some exact measurements for comparison.

As measurements varied quite a bit between swords of the same model, here's a few different measurements from Svenska Blankvapen del 2 and White Arms of the Royal Armoury.

m/1761: Blade length 100.2 cm, width at the base 4.5cm
m/1775: 94.8/5 cm
m/1775: 92.5/4.4 cm
m/1778: 101.3/4.5 cm
m/1778: 100/4.4 cm, 1350g (No weight given for the others.)

The m/1778 is supposed to be an m/1775 with part of the basket cut off, which is why I included it here.

celtan · 28th January 2009, 02:47 AM

Mine has a 35.5" blade. (~ 90 cm).

BTW, Robert. I owe you the data for the POB of my Spanish Ropera/Rapiere.

It is 3.25" apically from the xguard.

Best

Man

Atlantia · 28th January 2009, 03:42 AM

Robert,
The POB seems a little forward on your sword, which is clearly due to the rather long and heavy blade.
You can see from Manuels small-sword, and its much narrower lighter blade, it can be offset by a much smaller handle (and shorter).
Small-swords with that type of blade were used throughout Europe, and many look very similar. I assume the heavier blade might also have become quite far-flung in its useage.

The very long handle would seem to me to have two obvious advantages: grip and offsetting that long heavy blade.

If the sword was just a rehilted older blade for decorative purposes then why worry about either factor? Why not just make it look as much like a Rapier as you can and give it a standard size handle which would look more in keeping?

But the distinctive blade and its unusual point is exactly the same as the one in Kisaks picture?

I would think that although a little point heavy still, it WAS made to use.
Just my thoughts, and let me remind you, I'm often wrong! lol

Robert · 28th January 2009, 03:56 AM

Gene, Manuel and Kisak, I can't thank you enough for all your help in identifying this sword. To answer Genes questions, the pommel is rock solid tight so I would guess that the tang had been extended and yes there are still traces of silver paint on the guard. I got out my trusty steel measure and the measurements are, Length = 100.4 cm and Width = 4.6 cm. These do not match exactly but I think are definitely close enough to the ones listed by Kisak to figure out what the blade was from originally. As to the POB I'm sure it would change if the wire wrap was restored to the grip. And to the story I was given when I purchased this, with the description she gave on the other swords her Uncle was supposed to have brought back and the story about her children and grand children's use of the sword I found it quite believable. Who doesn't like a good story?

Gene, I must have been typing this at the same time you were posting your reply.

Thank you for posting another example of a sword similar in its none standard appearance.

Robert

Robert · 29th January 2009, 01:43 AM

OK I have a few more questions about this sword.
#1 Should I try to clean it anymore than I already have and if so what would be the best way to do it and what would be the best things to use? After stripping off the paint I used 0000 steel wool and machine oil to get it where it is now.
#2 Should I try to re-wrap the wire on the grip? I do have a couple of small pieces of the original wrap, a small piece of twisted or braided wire and a piece of solid wire.
#3 Where should the POB be on this?
Thank you all for any answers that you can offer to my questions.

Robert

Atlantia · 28th January 2009, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisak

As measurements varied quite a bit between swords of the same model, here's a few different measurements from Svenska Blankvapen del 2 and White Arms of the Royal Armoury.

m/1761: Blade length 100.2 cm, width at the base 4.5cm
m/1775: 94.8/5 cm
m/1775: 92.5/4.4 cm
m/1778: 101.3/4.5 cm
m/1778: 100/4.4 cm, 1350g (No weight given for the others.)

The m/1778 is supposed to be an m/1775 with part of the basket cut off, which is why I included it here.

wow! Great research Kisak.
Robert? How does that compare?

Just been looking through some books.
Nothing the same, but there are some great examples of 'unusual' rapier-esq swords with similarities.
Here's a 'basket hilt' with an eccentric guard and medium weightcentrally ridged blade:

kisak · 28th January 2009, 01:59 AM

From what I can recall it wouldn't be very rare for these blades to be without stamps actually, though I've never really though about looking for stamps and such when I've seen such swords at auctions, etc, so I'm not too sure.

The length of the hilt is indeed quite a bit, if the blade comes from one of these Swedish swords, then the tang would have been lengthened as well in the process.

Regarding the handling, these heavy cavalry swords are big, sturdy things, so their blades wouldn't be entierly out of place with a two-handed grip (as we can see here). As a curiosity I'm also reminded of George Silver recommending the same blade length for one handed and two handed swords.

And as for the engravings, they could simply be there to make it sell better (decorative work on a decorative thing). If we look at "tourist" versions of the various ethnographic weapons, they are often very heavily decorated (though I assume generally decorated in ways which won't take too much time or skill to produce), to make the customers open their wallets. The same could be the case here.

28th January 2009, 03:56 AM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Gene, Manuel and Kisak, I can't thank you enough for all your help in identifying this sword. To answer Genes questions, the pommel is rock solid tight so I would guess that the tang had been extended and yes there are still traces of silver paint on the guard. I got out my trusty steel measure and the measurements are, Length = 100.4 cm and Width = 4.6 cm. These do not match exactly but I think are definitely close enough to the ones listed by Kisak to figure out what the blade was from originally. As to the POB I'm sure it would change if the wire wrap was restored to the grip. And to the story I was given when I purchased this, with the description she gave on the other swords her Uncle was supposed to have brought back and the story about her children and grand children's use of the sword I found it quite believable. Who doesn't like a good story? Gene, I must have been typing this at the same time you were posting your reply. Thank you for posting another example of a sword similar in its none standard appearance. Robert Last edited by Robert Coleman; 28th January 2009 at 04:27 AM.

27th January 2009, 09:57 PM	#1
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Expanding on what Manuel said, this type of blade is seen on a number of Swedish heavy cavalry swords from the 18th century (and a few cavalry swords from the early parts of said century as well). To provide some examples I'm attaching a close-up of an m/1773 (colour), and a scanned full-length shot of an m/1775 for Småland's cavalry regiment (b&w). These two would have slightly shorter blades than Coleman's, but there are other, similar models with blades matching very well (m/1761 and m/1778 for Västgöta' cavalry regiment, and then of course there's the possibility of an officer custom-ordering something). I have pretty much no idea at all if, and then to what extent, this blade shape saw use outside of Sweden. As for the overall package, it looks very much to me like assembled in the 19th century as a decorative. Attached Images

28th January 2009, 12:03 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Kisak, Thank you very much for posting the pictures of the two swords. I do agree that the blades do look strikingly similar and this could very possible be a Swedish blade . Could you please tell me where the stampings on their blades are as I have been over and over this blade with no luck finding any markings at all. If most blades of this age were marked (I supposed they were ?) maybe if I knew were to look and with better light and a magnifying glass I might be able to find something. The other thing that I'm wondering about is the length of the hilt on my sword. The sword handles very well one handed but with the length of the hilt a two handed grip is very comfortable and greatly improves how it handles. I know absolutely nothing about this type of sword so everything I say is pure speculation on my part. Another question is would they have gone to all the trouble of putting the engraving on the pommel and collars if this was just to hang on a wall? I am only asking questions to learn, I am not disputing anything that has been offered in reference to this sword as I know things were done quite differently even 50 years ago. Again I thank you for your interest and help in trying to identifying this . Robert

28th January 2009, 02:47 AM	#5
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Mine has a 35.5" blade. (~ 90 cm). BTW, Robert. I owe you the data for the POB of my Spanish Ropera/Rapiere. It is 3.25" apically from the xguard. Best Man

28th January 2009, 03:42 AM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Robert, The POB seems a little forward on your sword, which is clearly due to the rather long and heavy blade. You can see from Manuels small-sword, and its much narrower lighter blade, it can be offset by a much smaller handle (and shorter). Small-swords with that type of blade were used throughout Europe, and many look very similar. I assume the heavier blade might also have become quite far-flung in its useage. The very long handle would seem to me to have two obvious advantages: grip and offsetting that long heavy blade. If the sword was just a rehilted older blade for decorative purposes then why worry about either factor? Why not just make it look as much like a Rapier as you can and give it a standard size handle which would look more in keeping? But the distinctive blade and its unusual point is exactly the same as the one in Kisaks picture? I would think that although a little point heavy still, it WAS made to use. Just my thoughts, and let me remind you, I'm often wrong! lol

29th January 2009, 01:43 AM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	OK I have a few more questions about this sword. #1 Should I try to clean it anymore than I already have and if so what would be the best way to do it and what would be the best things to use? After stripping off the paint I used 0000 steel wool and machine oil to get it where it is now. #2 Should I try to re-wrap the wire on the grip? I do have a couple of small pieces of the original wrap, a small piece of twisted or braided wire and a piece of solid wire. #3 Where should the POB be on this? Thank you all for any answers that you can offer to my questions. Robert

28th January 2009, 01:59 AM	#10
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	From what I can recall it wouldn't be very rare for these blades to be without stamps actually, though I've never really though about looking for stamps and such when I've seen such swords at auctions, etc, so I'm not too sure. The length of the hilt is indeed quite a bit, if the blade comes from one of these Swedish swords, then the tang would have been lengthened as well in the process. Regarding the handling, these heavy cavalry swords are big, sturdy things, so their blades wouldn't be entierly out of place with a two-handed grip (as we can see here). As a curiosity I'm also reminded of George Silver recommending the same blade length for one handed and two handed swords. And as for the engravings, they could simply be there to make it sell better (decorative work on a decorative thing). If we look at "tourist" versions of the various ethnographic weapons, they are often very heavily decorated (though I assume generally decorated in ways which won't take too much time or skill to produce), to make the customers open their wallets. The same could be the case here.