Unknown Thai Chopper

Andrew · 18th April 2005, 01:48 AM

There were two things at Artzi's table this year the I needed to have. Charles picked up one, this was the other.

I think this is an exceptional weapon, and would definitely include it in the mak family. I agree with Tom that this may very well be a "war" mak.

Extraordinary thing, Ian. Please do let me know if you are ever inclined to part with it. I'll give it a good home.

Lew · 18th April 2005, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

There were two things at Artzi's table this year the I needed to have. Charles picked up one, this was the other.

I think this is an exceptional weapon, and would definitely include it in the mak family. I agree with Tom that this may very well be a "war" mak.

Extraordinary thing, Ian. Please do let me know if you are ever inclined to part with it. I'll give it a good home.

Hi Ian

Very nice and interesting chopper congrats! It seems to be quite a large maybe we can even say it's a Big Mak

did it come with fries (sorry I couldn't resist the pun)

Lew

Ian · 18th April 2005, 04:33 AM

Seems akin to a mak, although the mak is a tool/weapon of the Montagnard in Laos and Vietnam. A northern Thai provenance would place it close to Laos, so some diffusion of the style might be expected into that region of Thailand.

Andrew, whenever I part with this one, you will be its next owner.

Ian.

Andrew · 18th April 2005, 05:04 AM

The spine markings are identical to those found on many Montagnard dha, and the blade engravings (if not the inlay--those are quite unusual in my experience) similar to this dha of Mark's:

Northern Thai seems more and more likely for that one.

Montagnard dha spine markings:

Similar spine markings seem to appear on weapons from a wide geographic area, from China to the north right down through most of SEA.

Ian · 18th April 2005, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

The spine markings are identical to those found on many Montagnard dha, and the blade engravings (if not the inlay--those are quite unusual in my experience) similar to this dha of Mark's:
Northern Thai seems more and more likely for that one.

Yes, very similar markings and probably dating from about the same time. Mark's sword seems at least a hundred years old, perhaps second half of the 19th C. or earlier, and I would not be surprised if this chopper was made then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Montagnard dha spine markings:
Similar spine markings seem to appear on weapons from a wide geographic area, from China to the north right down through most of SEA.

Tom H. made a similar point with respect to the blade style, and the markings could be more widely distributed than simply northern Thailand and neighboring states. Perhaps the ill-defined term "hill tribe" might apply to the patterns.

Ian.

Conogre · 18th April 2005, 09:28 PM

Without seeing or handling it in person, my first impulse is to say the it was probably a"state" weapon, as used by guards at the gates, for example, as opposed to a general purpose melee weapon.
It's my understanding that the area was, and still is in many instances, heavily occupied by local warlords, each with their own retinue and weapons such as this would seem ideal.
The work put into it suggests more than purely decorative intent, while, like many polearms, the form likely had its beginnings as an agricultural tool.
Would not a piece such as this also be effective against horsemen?
While not something many westerners think of, the elephants were not, by far, the only animals ridden into battle in SE Asia.
Mike

Ian · 18th April 2005, 11:49 PM

Thanks Mike.

A guard's weapon seems quite plausible. It would certainly be a handsome accessory for the personal body guard of a distinguished war lord.

Not sure about the foot soldier's answer to mounted cavalry -- perhaps a little on the short side for that purpose.

Another possibility might be for rampart defense. JP gave a very nice talk at Timonium about koras, and he showed pictures of several very heavy kora used for rampart defenses. This one is nowhere close to as heavy as those brutes, but it could possibly have a similar purpose within the Thai armamentarium.

Ian.

Andrew · 18th April 2005, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Andrew, whenever I part with this one, you will be its next owner.

.

Thanks, Ian. Do you want my shipping adress now?

tom hyle · 18th April 2005, 08:49 AM

You may or may not be able to so tightly bound mak geo/culturally, and it largely depends on how you define "mak", as similar styles, including Arit, and ultimately parang ginah, Naga dao, pinagas, and panabas, spread out to both sides; tanged choppers.... This, however, with its backward s-curve (z-curve?

), seems like me pretty close to mak per se. The difference from the Montagnard ones seems to be in the absense of the nonsharp hook of (only) some of them (and I'm not sure that'd be on a fighting one; this machete-like parang-nabur-like rounded "Roman" slashing tip seems more practical for a weapon). As I say, a similar blade with a sharpened tip edge, though more pointily hooked, and often socketted, is often seen on mainland SE Asian farmers' tools, though I of course haven't had a lot of interest in what they call them, and so don't know....

derek · 18th April 2005, 02:48 PM

Guys this looks like an asian item listed as ceremonial on ebay right now. Yours appears to be much longer, but it is the same shape.On the current auction, there is a "sheath" of bamboo that curves, with a cut away section in the middle where the blade and shaft rest. The ends of the sheath are connected by a cord, which gives it a look reminiscient of a loosely strung bow. I have seen this, possibly in Stone's, but I don't have it in front of me at the moment. Maybe someone else will find it first.

When the auction is over I will post the item number.

-derek

Ian · 18th April 2005, 02:57 PM

The piece you are referring to is a pisau raut or rattan knife, which we discussed on the old Forum. These are still being made -- basically they are a tool for cutting rattan.

The present chopper is considerably larger with a much more substantial blade. The pisau is a small knife and could certainly cause a nasty cut if used as a weapon, but this chopper could inflict a much heavier and potentially lethal blow. Possibly the same general idea in construction design, but the chopper is definitely a "magnum" compared with the pisau.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

Guys this looks like an asian item listed as ceremonial on ebay right now. Yours appears to be much longer, but it is the same shape.On the current auction, there is a "sheath" of bamboo that curves, with a cut away section in the middle where the blade and shaft rest. The ends of the sheath are connected by a cord, which gives it a look reminiscient of a loosely strung bow. I have seen this, possibly in Stone's, but I don't have it in front of me at the moment. Maybe someone else will find it first.

When the auction is over I will post the item number.

-derek

Mark · 18th April 2005, 03:04 PM

I saw several of these during my visit of the Smithsonian off-shelf collection. Unfortunately, they were just classified as "choppers," or sometimes "jungle"-something (chopper, knife, etc.). Personally I think that it is distinct from a mak, but that term is pretty broad so that is what it might be called despite it having a distinct use.

As far as it being a weapon, I think it would be pretty awkward, particularly in view of the mix-it-up style of fighting generally seen in old SEA battles. They would basically rush at each other en masse and flail away. Since this would require a lot of room to effectivly swing, it would be hard to use in this setting. It might be a calvary weapon, however, which is the mak's war-time job. Having handled this one at Timmonium, I think its handle istill s a little too long, though. I doubt that it would have been used from elephant back, as it is too simple an affair for a high noble, who were the ones who fought from elephant back. The mahout just drove (sort of -- the elephants apparently went pretty nuts once in the fray).

I am not sure where that leaves me, since the decoration would seem superfluous to a tool.

18th April 2005, 11:49 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Excellent suggestions ... Thanks Mike. A guard's weapon seems quite plausible. It would certainly be a handsome accessory for the personal body guard of a distinguished war lord. Not sure about the foot soldier's answer to mounted cavalry -- perhaps a little on the short side for that purpose. Another possibility might be for rampart defense. JP gave a very nice talk at Timonium about koras, and he showed pictures of several very heavy kora used for rampart defenses. This one is nowhere close to as heavy as those brutes, but it could possibly have a similar purpose within the Thai armamentarium. Ian.

18th April 2005, 01:48 AM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	There were two things at Artzi's table this year the I needed to have. Charles picked up one, this was the other. I think this is an exceptional weapon, and would definitely include it in the mak family. I agree with Tom that this may very well be a "war" mak. Extraordinary thing, Ian. Please do let me know if you are ever inclined to part with it. I'll give it a good home.

18th April 2005, 04:33 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Seems akin to a mak, although the mak is a tool/weapon of the Montagnard in Laos and Vietnam. A northern Thai provenance would place it close to Laos, so some diffusion of the style might be expected into that region of Thailand. Andrew, whenever I part with this one, you will be its next owner. Ian.

18th April 2005, 05:04 AM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	The spine markings are identical to those found on many Montagnard dha, and the blade engravings (if not the inlay--those are quite unusual in my experience) similar to this dha of Mark's: Northern Thai seems more and more likely for that one. Montagnard dha spine markings: Similar spine markings seem to appear on weapons from a wide geographic area, from China to the north right down through most of SEA.

18th April 2005, 09:28 PM	#6
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Without seeing or handling it in person, my first impulse is to say the it was probably a"state" weapon, as used by guards at the gates, for example, as opposed to a general purpose melee weapon. It's my understanding that the area was, and still is in many instances, heavily occupied by local warlords, each with their own retinue and weapons such as this would seem ideal. The work put into it suggests more than purely decorative intent, while, like many polearms, the form likely had its beginnings as an agricultural tool. Would not a piece such as this also be effective against horsemen? While not something many westerners think of, the elephants were not, by far, the only animals ridden into battle in SE Asia. Mike

18th April 2005, 08:49 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	You may or may not be able to so tightly bound mak geo/culturally, and it largely depends on how you define "mak", as similar styles, including Arit, and ultimately parang ginah, Naga dao, pinagas, and panabas, spread out to both sides; tanged choppers.... This, however, with its backward s-curve (z-curve? ), seems like me pretty close to mak per se. The difference from the Montagnard ones seems to be in the absense of the nonsharp hook of (only) some of them (and I'm not sure that'd be on a fighting one; this machete-like parang-nabur-like rounded "Roman" slashing tip seems more practical for a weapon). As I say, a similar blade with a sharpened tip edge, though more pointily hooked, and often socketted, is often seen on mainland SE Asian farmers' tools, though I of course haven't had a lot of interest in what they call them, and so don't know....

18th April 2005, 02:48 PM	#10
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Guys this looks like an asian item listed as ceremonial on ebay right now. Yours appears to be much longer, but it is the same shape.On the current auction, there is a "sheath" of bamboo that curves, with a cut away section in the middle where the blade and shaft rest. The ends of the sheath are connected by a cord, which gives it a look reminiscient of a loosely strung bow. I have seen this, possibly in Stone's, but I don't have it in front of me at the moment. Maybe someone else will find it first. When the auction is over I will post the item number. -derek

18th April 2005, 03:04 PM	#12
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I saw several of these during my visit of the Smithsonian off-shelf collection. Unfortunately, they were just classified as "choppers," or sometimes "jungle"-something (chopper, knife, etc.). Personally I think that it is distinct from a mak, but that term is pretty broad so that is what it might be called despite it having a distinct use. As far as it being a weapon, I think it would be pretty awkward, particularly in view of the mix-it-up style of fighting generally seen in old SEA battles. They would basically rush at each other en masse and flail away. Since this would require a lot of room to effectivly swing, it would be hard to use in this setting. It might be a calvary weapon, however, which is the mak's war-time job. Having handled this one at Timmonium, I think its handle istill s a little too long, though. I doubt that it would have been used from elephant back, as it is too simple an affair for a high noble, who were the ones who fought from elephant back. The mahout just drove (sort of -- the elephants apparently went pretty nuts once in the fray). I am not sure where that leaves me, since the decoration would seem superfluous to a tool.