A thought on Indian weapons

Jeff D · 25th January 2009, 03:55 PM

Beautiful Talwar Jens,

It is a interesting feature you bring up Jens. You see the narrowing from frequent sharpening not uncommonly on Talwars with laminated or mono-steel, and rarely on wootz blades. This same feature can be seen on some central Asian sabers but rarely anywhere else. I have read, but can't remember where, that the Sikhs' were obsessive with sharping their blades. It was mentioned that it was quite a dishonor to have a dull blade. I would think then that the narrowing more represents use and custom more than age. Your point that a hilt with minimum wear would not likely be original to a well used blade, would seems valid.
Is it possible that the blade was intentionally ground down to lighten the blade? If so then your hilt may in-fact have been the original one.

All the Best
Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2009, 04:22 PM

Hello Richard,

Well actually the time is 16.30 – so morning and morning, but I will let this one pass.

We will never know how common it was to change the hilts, but we can try to guess, looking at the type of hilt/decoration and how worn the blade is. Some blades were used/kept for reasons of veneration, but the hilt could have been changed, due to the change of fashion – depending of how big the owner’s purse was.

Like it has been mentioned, it is likely to believe that in most cases the owner or one of his servants made the sharpening, and why sharpening the edge not being used? This is likely the reason why most blades are worn at the curve. Please remember, that swords were expensive, so when sharpening the blade there is no reason to believe they removed more steel than necessary.

I have, unfortunately seen a file or a grinder used on a blade, and it took me a long time to remove the marks – attached.

I am grateful that you will not open the topic about the hilt sizes, as I get red spots all over when the discussion starts. The Indians have a finer bone structure than most Europeans, and that is the reason why their hands fit the katar and tulwar hilts.

Hello Jeff,

If you grinded the blade down intentionally to get a lighter blade, would you do it at the curve? I think I would do it closer to the hilt, as a relatively good weight, close to the tip of the blade, would be important when striking, so I really think that the 5 mm missing are wear from sharpening. If the sharpening was done, carefully, it would have taken quite a few times of sharpening to remove five millimetres of the blade.

Here is also a picture of the hilt - worn, but still nice.

Rick · 25th January 2009, 04:29 PM

I have the dubious honor of owning a wootz Bikaner armory sword that shows exactly the kind of grinding wheel marks that Jen's example shows .

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2009, 04:44 PM

Well Rick,
Here is what I did. I took my trusty Dremel and used a #511 finishing abrasive buff - well actually you will need a handful of them. It is the first time I have used the Dremel on one of my weapons, but should I have done it by hand, I would still be at work - and I got the sword in 2006.
Jens

Rick · 25th January 2009, 04:55 PM

Thanks for the info Jens ; sometime if I am feeling brave maybe I will try .
The interesting thing to me is that both are Bikaner swords and both show grind marks .

Interesting coincidence if they both were done outside of the armory .

Rick

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2009, 06:30 PM

Rick,

You don’t have to be brave to try; it all goes very slowly, so you are in full control all the time.

Yes it is ‘funny’, isn’t it, that both come from the Bikaner armoury, and both have the same filing marks. My guess is, that when some part of the armoury was ‘emptied’, some smart guy made this, but I am guessing, of course, as I can’t, in my wildest fantasy, imagine that an armourer would do a thing like that. Both our swords may not have ‘started’ at the Bikaner armoury, but that is where they ended – until their final travel.

Jens

BBJW · 25th January 2009, 06:37 PM

Here is one of mine with a much sharpened blade. Very sharp and does not appear to have seen a grinder. The hilt I believe is original to the blade.

Cheers
bbjw

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2009, 10:04 PM

This is a very good example of a blade, which has been sharpened all the way, and not only at the curve

25th January 2009, 04:22 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hello Richard, Well actually the time is 16.30 – so morning and morning, but I will let this one pass. We will never know how common it was to change the hilts, but we can try to guess, looking at the type of hilt/decoration and how worn the blade is. Some blades were used/kept for reasons of veneration, but the hilt could have been changed, due to the change of fashion – depending of how big the owner’s purse was. Like it has been mentioned, it is likely to believe that in most cases the owner or one of his servants made the sharpening, and why sharpening the edge not being used? This is likely the reason why most blades are worn at the curve. Please remember, that swords were expensive, so when sharpening the blade there is no reason to believe they removed more steel than necessary. I have, unfortunately seen a file or a grinder used on a blade, and it took me a long time to remove the marks – attached. I am grateful that you will not open the topic about the hilt sizes, as I get red spots all over when the discussion starts. The Indians have a finer bone structure than most Europeans, and that is the reason why their hands fit the katar and tulwar hilts. Hello Jeff, If you grinded the blade down intentionally to get a lighter blade, would you do it at the curve? I think I would do it closer to the hilt, as a relatively good weight, close to the tip of the blade, would be important when striking, so I really think that the 5 mm missing are wear from sharpening. If the sharpening was done, carefully, it would have taken quite a few times of sharpening to remove five millimetres of the blade. Here is also a picture of the hilt - worn, but still nice. Attached Images

25th January 2009, 04:29 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	For What It's Worth I have the dubious honor of owning a wootz Bikaner armory sword that shows exactly the kind of grinding wheel marks that Jen's example shows .

25th January 2009, 06:37 PM	#7
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	Here is one of mine with a much sharpened blade. Very sharp and does not appear to have seen a grinder. The hilt I believe is original to the blade. Cheers bbjw Attached Images

25th January 2009, 03:55 PM	#1
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Beautiful Talwar Jens, It is a interesting feature you bring up Jens. You see the narrowing from frequent sharpening not uncommonly on Talwars with laminated or mono-steel, and rarely on wootz blades. This same feature can be seen on some central Asian sabers but rarely anywhere else. I have read, but can't remember where, that the Sikhs' were obsessive with sharping their blades. It was mentioned that it was quite a dishonor to have a dull blade. I would think then that the narrowing more represents use and custom more than age. Your point that a hilt with minimum wear would not likely be original to a well used blade, would seems valid. Is it possible that the blade was intentionally ground down to lighten the blade? If so then your hilt may in-fact have been the original one. All the Best Jeff

25th January 2009, 04:44 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Well Rick, Here is what I did. I took my trusty Dremel and used a #511 finishing abrasive buff - well actually you will need a handful of them. It is the first time I have used the Dremel on one of my weapons, but should I have done it by hand, I would still be at work - and I got the sword in 2006. Jens

25th January 2009, 04:55 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Thanks for the info Jens ; sometime if I am feeling brave maybe I will try . The interesting thing to me is that both are Bikaner swords and both show grind marks . Interesting coincidence if they both were done outside of the armory . Rick

25th January 2009, 06:30 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Rick, You don’t have to be brave to try; it all goes very slowly, so you are in full control all the time. Yes it is ‘funny’, isn’t it, that both come from the Bikaner armoury, and both have the same filing marks. My guess is, that when some part of the armoury was ‘emptied’, some smart guy made this, but I am guessing, of course, as I can’t, in my wildest fantasy, imagine that an armourer would do a thing like that. Both our swords may not have ‘started’ at the Bikaner armoury, but that is where they ended – until their final travel. Jens

25th January 2009, 10:04 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	This is a very good example of a blade, which has been sharpened all the way, and not only at the curve