pronunciation question: keris vs. kris

Rick · 12th January 2009, 08:28 PM

I once asked a woman from Malaka how she pronounced the word .
It was "k'rees" with just a trip of the tongue over the R .

Probably varies from region to region .

A. G. Maisey · 12th January 2009, 09:07 PM

You're pretty much spot-on with that description Rick.

In fact, the word "kris" has come into the English language and is listed by the Oxford Dictionary.

Since it has come into the English language, it is legitimate to give it an unaccented pronunciation. Whenever a native English speaker asks me for the "correct" pronunciation, I simply say that it is like the given name for a person:- "Chris".

Of course this "chris", or "kris" is too flat a pronunciation if it were to be used in an Indonesian context, but if we are speaking English, there is no necessity to try to imitate the accent used in speaking the Indonesian language.

This word has been represented a number of ways in European languages, the two spellings already mentioned can be extended to include "cris" and "creese".

In my household we normally conduct our conversations in three languages:- English is the dominant one, but we also use Indonesian and Javanese. Whenever I find it necessary to use an Indonesian or Javanese word when the rest of the speech is in English, I do not take much care with the accent, simply because it is too difficult, and in fact sounds weird to jump from a broad Australian accent to a foriegn accent.However, when the conversation is in Indonesian, I change my accent, and if I need to use an English word, I give it an Indonesian accented pronunciation. I have friends who are Italian, and Estonian, and Ukrainian, and they have told me they do a similar thing.

For a native English speaker the pronunciation of the word as "chris" is completely OK.

ganjawulung · 12th January 2009, 10:58 PM

IMHO, both words are correct from different views. Keris is Javanese and Indonesian pronounciation, and kris is English or other language than Indonesian pronounciation.

Indonesian tongue -- and mostly Javanese -- tends to add more vocal-syllabel to pronounce a certain word. Such as "spoor" (train) in Dutch language. The Javanese spells it as "sepur" for the same meaning. It is the same with "station" in English, or "station" (?) in Dutch. Javanese spells it as "setasiun".

But in "older" Javanese language, people used to find word -- written in one syllable, but actually must be spelled in two syllables, like "krta" (with special mark above the "r") which means "town". It must be spelled as "kerta". Or, "pakrti" as "pakarti"... Maybe too, for "kris" in old Javanese or Sanskrit which might be spelled as "keris".

GANJAWULUNG

sjors · 13th January 2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

or "station" (?) in Dutch

Dear Ganjawulung, you're right, station is the proper Dutch word...
(and in real the Indonesian pronouncation sounds even more like the Dutch pronouncation then the English one

)

ganjawulung · 14th January 2009, 03:22 AM

Thank You, Sjors,

And this is just an intermezzo -- if you browse the internet with your search-engine, you will find several amazing sites of 'another keris'... Keris.net for instance, is the site of a freelance computer programmer whose name is actually Chris...

In Malaysia? Keris College is a name of an educational institution, the member of Keris Group Company since 1996, I think it is nothing to do with "your keris world".

In Korea? Keris is the abbreviation of Korea Educational and Research Information Service since 1999, of course it is nothing to do too with this Keris Warung Kopi.

In the United States? Keris Industries is a company -- installing new residential garage doors and openers... And also, if you are pet's lover then you will find "Keris-Lhasa-Apso", a puppy breeder company in Seattle, WA.

Even in the "keris country" like Indonesia, we have too a "keris" company that doesn't produce kerises at all. And that is "Batik Keris" -- a prominent batik (textile) company from Solo, Central Jawa...

GANJAWULUNG

Rick · 15th January 2009, 12:23 AM

Then there is the beer ...

TikiD · 15th January 2009, 04:20 AM

Thank you for this discussion. I think if I were to have a discussion with someone over this and want to argue for an authentic Javanese pronounciation, I might offer what Rick has said here:

"'k'rees' with just a trip of the tongue over the R."

Two syllables, emphasis on the second syllable.

But, of course, not many would use that pronounciation outside of Indonesia!

12th January 2009, 10:58 PM	#3
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	IMHO, both words are correct from different views. Keris is Javanese and Indonesian pronounciation, and kris is English or other language than Indonesian pronounciation. Indonesian tongue -- and mostly Javanese -- tends to add more vocal-syllabel to pronounce a certain word. Such as "spoor" (train) in Dutch language. The Javanese spells it as "sepur" for the same meaning. It is the same with "station" in English, or "station" (?) in Dutch. Javanese spells it as "setasiun". But in "older" Javanese language, people used to find word -- written in one syllable, but actually must be spelled in two syllables, like "krta" (with special mark above the "r") which means "town". It must be spelled as "kerta". Or, "pakrti" as "pakarti"... Maybe too, for "kris" in old Javanese or Sanskrit which might be spelled as "keris". GANJAWULUNG Last edited by ganjawulung; 13th January 2009 at 02:43 AM.

12th January 2009, 08:28 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	I once asked a woman from Malaka how she pronounced the word . It was "k'rees" with just a trip of the tongue over the R . Probably varies from region to region .

12th January 2009, 09:07 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	You're pretty much spot-on with that description Rick. In fact, the word "kris" has come into the English language and is listed by the Oxford Dictionary. Since it has come into the English language, it is legitimate to give it an unaccented pronunciation. Whenever a native English speaker asks me for the "correct" pronunciation, I simply say that it is like the given name for a person:- "Chris". Of course this "chris", or "kris" is too flat a pronunciation if it were to be used in an Indonesian context, but if we are speaking English, there is no necessity to try to imitate the accent used in speaking the Indonesian language. This word has been represented a number of ways in European languages, the two spellings already mentioned can be extended to include "cris" and "creese". In my household we normally conduct our conversations in three languages:- English is the dominant one, but we also use Indonesian and Javanese. Whenever I find it necessary to use an Indonesian or Javanese word when the rest of the speech is in English, I do not take much care with the accent, simply because it is too difficult, and in fact sounds weird to jump from a broad Australian accent to a foriegn accent.However, when the conversation is in Indonesian, I change my accent, and if I need to use an English word, I give it an Indonesian accented pronunciation. I have friends who are Italian, and Estonian, and Ukrainian, and they have told me they do a similar thing. For a native English speaker the pronunciation of the word as "chris" is completely OK.

14th January 2009, 03:22 AM	#5
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thank You, Sjors, And this is just an intermezzo -- if you browse the internet with your search-engine, you will find several amazing sites of 'another keris'... Keris.net for instance, is the site of a freelance computer programmer whose name is actually Chris... In Malaysia? Keris College is a name of an educational institution, the member of Keris Group Company since 1996, I think it is nothing to do with "your keris world". In Korea? Keris is the abbreviation of Korea Educational and Research Information Service since 1999, of course it is nothing to do too with this Keris Warung Kopi. In the United States? Keris Industries is a company -- installing new residential garage doors and openers... And also, if you are pet's lover then you will find "Keris-Lhasa-Apso", a puppy breeder company in Seattle, WA. Even in the "keris country" like Indonesia, we have too a "keris" company that doesn't produce kerises at all. And that is "Batik Keris" -- a prominent batik (textile) company from Solo, Central Jawa... GANJAWULUNG

15th January 2009, 12:23 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Then there is the beer ...

15th January 2009, 04:20 AM	#7
TikiD Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5	Thank you for this discussion. I think if I were to have a discussion with someone over this and want to argue for an authentic Javanese pronounciation, I might offer what Rick has said here: "'k'rees' with just a trip of the tongue over the R." Two syllables, emphasis on the second syllable. But, of course, not many would use that pronounciation outside of Indonesia!