Africa,Naga,SEAsia?

RSWORD · 16th April 2005, 09:07 PM

OK, I am going to be of some help but also of no help at all. I have a book in Russian on German weapons. There is a sidearm pictured with basically the same hilt type and blade form but alas I cannot read Russian. However, I can make out the date of circa 1920's-30's. I believe I have also seen similar hooked pommel types made in Germany for export to the S American market. An Argentinian model comes to mind but is elusive from my reference books at the moment. The tip of the scabbard appears to be modified with the addition of the spike. Perhaps a WWII trench sidearm with modified scabbard tip.

Tim Simmons · 16th April 2005, 09:19 PM

Hello Rsword,that is very interesting,I have to say it looks early 20th century and has a frontier feel about it.I now wonder if it could be a sidearm used by German and native forces in the little known fighting in German East Africa during ww1.Thank you very much.Tim PS the spike is very East African.

tom hyle · 16th April 2005, 09:50 PM

My guess would be EuroSouth American, but it is an odd one. It bears a certain resemblance to the Weyersberg kirschbaum modelo Argentino 1909s, to cite a military model that seems of the broad type, though not exactly. Could this be Philipino? The tip on the (wooden!) scabbard reminds me of the climbing spike on the bottom of Luzon's Kayan spears. I had a nice Luzon sword that had a resemblance to this...Is the pommel a bird, with defined eyes and a line across the base of the beak?

Tim Simmons · 17th April 2005, 10:52 AM

Hello Tom,that had crossed my mind,I am open to all suggestions,for the time being I am happy with German East Africa, the spike is very much a mini version of the end spike an E African spears.Thanks all Tim.

tom hyle · 17th April 2005, 11:14 AM

In ways, yes, perhaps especially in the decorative(?) effect, but note how it was formed; by being curled up from a flat piece; it looks to me like I can see that not only the hollow part that grabs the sheath, but the long spike, also, was formed this way. This is the way some kayan spikes I've seen are formed. The African spear "ferules" (the old/traditional Euro. collector/anthropologist term for them) I've seen, in contrast, were forged from a rod, whose end was flattened and then curled to form the socket.

Tim Simmons · 17th April 2005, 12:08 PM

Hello,the spike is forged from a rod and is solid.The wood does look very SE Asian but could equally be African.Funny when I first bought it yesterday my thoughts said Philippines.Tim

tom hyle · 17th April 2005, 02:06 PM

The photo fooled me; there looks like a rolled line running down the spike; thanks. I thought of the wood; someone could
ID it, but I didn't figure we coul dget anything meaningful from pictures; it looks mahagaesque, and there's so many of those. Likwise the carving is so basic; could easily be Berbese, or Nepali or probably anything else. I think maybe the only other bare wooden sheaths I've seen coming out of Africa are on flyssas? It's also not very European, and is frankly where I feel my S America idea may fall apart, too....

Conogre · 17th April 2005, 02:10 PM

This is another of those "look at, digest and come back later to look again" pieces.
Rather than being a military item, I suspect that it's either a settler's item, an overseer's item or a colonist's piece, such as a profesional hunter or such.
My basic "gut feeling" is that it was made to be used in Africa, rather than to be taken home and showed off, with India coming in a distant 2nd.
While nothing more than the meerest indicator, I've got an antique sword cane that's ENTIRELY leather wrapped, made in the distinctive "western" style and with a definite hand-forged blade that has the same pattern worked into the leather as is shown in the scabbard.
The only thing about the cane that I'm 100% sure of, by the way, is that is NOT human skin, as was related to me when I recieved it, an attribution almost solely reserved for African leatherworks.
The aluminum band at the bottom and the rubber tip were my own contributions as I used it for a while, PRE-9/11.
Mike

16th April 2005, 09:19 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,876	Hello Rsword,that is very interesting,I have to say it looks early 20th century and has a frontier feel about it.I now wonder if it could be a sidearm used by German and native forces in the little known fighting in German East Africa during ww1.Thank you very much.Tim PS the spike is very East African. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 16th April 2005 at 09:25 PM. Reason: thinking again

17th April 2005, 02:10 PM	#8
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	This is another of those "look at, digest and come back later to look again" pieces. Rather than being a military item, I suspect that it's either a settler's item, an overseer's item or a colonist's piece, such as a profesional hunter or such. My basic "gut feeling" is that it was made to be used in Africa, rather than to be taken home and showed off, with India coming in a distant 2nd. While nothing more than the meerest indicator, I've got an antique sword cane that's ENTIRELY leather wrapped, made in the distinctive "western" style and with a definite hand-forged blade that has the same pattern worked into the leather as is shown in the scabbard. The only thing about the cane that I'm 100% sure of, by the way, is that is NOT human skin, as was related to me when I recieved it, an attribution almost solely reserved for African leatherworks. The aluminum band at the bottom and the rubber tip were my own contributions as I used it for a while, PRE-9/11. Mike Attached Images

16th April 2005, 09:07 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	OK, I am going to be of some help but also of no help at all. I have a book in Russian on German weapons. There is a sidearm pictured with basically the same hilt type and blade form but alas I cannot read Russian. However, I can make out the date of circa 1920's-30's. I believe I have also seen similar hooked pommel types made in Germany for export to the S American market. An Argentinian model comes to mind but is elusive from my reference books at the moment. The tip of the scabbard appears to be modified with the addition of the spike. Perhaps a WWII trench sidearm with modified scabbard tip.

16th April 2005, 09:50 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	My guess would be EuroSouth American, but it is an odd one. It bears a certain resemblance to the Weyersberg kirschbaum modelo Argentino 1909s, to cite a military model that seems of the broad type, though not exactly. Could this be Philipino? The tip on the (wooden!) scabbard reminds me of the climbing spike on the bottom of Luzon's Kayan spears. I had a nice Luzon sword that had a resemblance to this...Is the pommel a bird, with defined eyes and a line across the base of the beak?

17th April 2005, 10:52 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,876	Hello Tom,that had crossed my mind,I am open to all suggestions,for the time being I am happy with German East Africa, the spike is very much a mini version of the end spike an E African spears.Thanks all Tim.

17th April 2005, 11:14 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	In ways, yes, perhaps especially in the decorative(?) effect, but note how it was formed; by being curled up from a flat piece; it looks to me like I can see that not only the hollow part that grabs the sheath, but the long spike, also, was formed this way. This is the way some kayan spikes I've seen are formed. The African spear "ferules" (the old/traditional Euro. collector/anthropologist term for them) I've seen, in contrast, were forged from a rod, whose end was flattened and then curled to form the socket.

17th April 2005, 12:08 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,876	Hello,the spike is forged from a rod and is solid.The wood does look very SE Asian but could equally be African.Funny when I first bought it yesterday my thoughts said Philippines.Tim

17th April 2005, 02:06 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The photo fooled me; there looks like a rolled line running down the spike; thanks. I thought of the wood; someone could ID it, but I didn't figure we coul dget anything meaningful from pictures; it looks mahagaesque, and there's so many of those. Likwise the carving is so basic; could easily be Berbese, or Nepali or probably anything else. I think maybe the only other bare wooden sheaths I've seen coming out of Africa are on flyssas? It's also not very European, and is frankly where I feel my S America idea may fall apart, too....