10 luk blade ?

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Might be 10/30 years this one heavely acid to make it look older .

Well Ben, anything is possible, but i don't get the impression that this is an artificially aged blade. What makes you think so?

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by David

Well Ben, anything is possible, but i don't get the impression that this is an artificially aged blade. What makes you think so?

The blade is very bad misused with wateracid they use in an car battery to hide the real age we see this a lot mostly bring back from dutch army guys in the 50 to make it look better put in an decent scabbard an nice hilt on it .

It also looks that they use kachelpotlood on it I don t now the Enghlis worth for it

If an kris that is real nice one it has better treathment so there is nothing
to hide and no use off aggressive acid needed .

Here an pic off 2 kris that are recently washed on the right way



Ben

[asomotif]

off 2 kris that are recently washed on the right way

Ben, Pretty but slightly rusty examples. not relevant in this thread imho.

Does anybody have any serious comment on the age of this washed down 11/10 luk blade ? maybe on basis of dapur ?

[ganjawulung]

Agree with David, Battara and Alamshah... A "sabuk inten" (dhapur), 11 waves but the tip is a little bit worn away.

GANJAWULUNG

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Ben, Pretty but slightly rusty examples. not relevant in this thread imho.

Does anybody have any serious comment on the age of this washed down 11/10 luk blade ? maybe on basis of dapur ?

The relevant is to show that your kris is worn away and even that an rusty kris don't have the pitting and black made color on the kris like yours and that it could be that your kris had one wave more.

Ben

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

The relevant is to show that your kris is worn away and even that an rusty kris don't have the pitting and black made color on the kris like yours and that it could be that your kris had one wave more.

Well Ben, i also think i see a touch of residual rust on your properly washed ivory hilted blade.
I think we are all aware that new blades often get artificial age treatments, but frankly i personally find it rather difficult to tell based on the photo that Willem has provided. I have a few old soldiers in my collection that have pitted blades (and i am sure they have real age) so i don't think that is a fair indicator of deception. If i were to assume this is indeed an old blade i would say that it has a pamor made with non-contrasting materials which would account for the dark color of the blade over all. New blades are artificially aged for different reasons. Sometimes it is to deceive, but often it is just because it is the style, a look which is trying to be achieved. Of course, when that is the case the blade would not be eroded as badly as this one.
Since this is not a particularly rare or valuable pamor or dhapur (unless i am missing something), i see little reason why someone would purposefully do this much damage to it to try to pass it off as old. Over-washed, worn out blades like this don't usually get too much money and if it was recently made i would image the maker could get just as much if not more if the blade were pristine with less work involved. But then perhaps i am speaking from a logic that just does not apply.

[Dajak]

Hi David the money they get for it would be a reason they have to work 12 hours for when they get good money 500,000.00 till 600,000.00 an month.
30 till 40 euro an month if you have an good job so they do everything to make money I see there at one store at least 500 new made Balinese kris blade from very good quality that it was for me difficult to see are they old or not .

He offered me an nice Balinese kris golden Handle with gemstone Ivory scabbard mouth golden half open pendok old blade (it wasn't an old blade but they made it look old with an very nice pamor) for 2500.00 dollar it was so nice made that I was thinking off buying it but I did not want to have trouble with the dutch customs when I get back about the ivory so I leave it there.

They can make real good stuff overthere but also the make junk for the tourist.

The problem is that the tourist buy the junk stuff so they will produce it .

The hilt is tridagna not ivory the blade was very rusty when I did get it just cleaned a litte bit before the first wash after the next wash it will dissapear .


Ben

[Henk]

I feel a lot of competition in the discussions between these gentlemen.

I cann't say the keris of Dajak has been properly washed. If a keris is properly washed all the rust is removed and the blade is completely white and clean before it is touched with warangan for the etching. When etched with warangan in the right way the pamor shows up and the keris can be left alone for years if the blade is oiled regular.
Very nice blades but not so old in my opinion as the blade Asomotif showed us.
I've seen more very old blades eaten away by the acid used during ages. It has also to do with the iron used for the blade. The later keris where made of better quality iron often from European origin, like bicycles and tools.

The keris of Asomotif is a very nice and old 11 luk keris. The dress is much more newer than the blade itself. But the dress has also age. I think this is a very nice old piece.

By the way, luk on keris are always an uneven number. Sometimes you have to look closely for it but it is always present. Also on this blade.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi David the money they get for it would be a reason they have to work 12 hours for when they get good money 500,000.00 till 600,000.00 an month.
30 till 40 euro an month if you have an good job so they do everything to make money ......
Ben

Ben, I don't know where or when you got these figures, but just FYI, the amount you wrote there is way beneath the minimum wages here. If currently someone is paying those wages, they should be reported.

I live in a village, 45 km from the nearest town. Here, a man working in the rice fields makes Rp 900.000 / month. With a few chickens ducks and goats, he can net well over Rp 1 milion / month. Working in the fields is the lowest paid job you can find.

A baber, makes Rp 3 million a month. A builder makes Rp 1.5 million a month. A carpenter, makes up to Rp 3 million a month. These wages are usually with one or two meals included. People pay next to nothing for accomodation and taxes, so they take home most of their earnings. The bigest expenditure for village people is for "gifts" (contributions) for social purpuses; weddings, circumcissions, deaths, births, thanksgivings, visiting the sick etc.

There is no good job that pays 500-600 thousand a month. Even beggars make more than that!

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

The hilt is tridagna not ivory the blade was very rusty when I did get it just cleaned a litte bit before the first wash after the next wash it will dissapear .

Thanks Ben, your close-up photo does in fact reveal your hilt to be tridagna. Sort of an aside to the topic, but nice to know anyway.
I still am not convinced that Willem keris has been artificially aged based on your comments. The obvious fact that many new keris are treated this way does not prove that this is one of them. Many keris are mistreated in their long lifetimes and don't look exactly pristine, or even as good as your examples, after many years of washing and staining.
That doesn't mean that there is absolutely no possibility that Willem's keris is a new, aged keris. The folks who do this stuff have become very good at it, no doubt. I just don't see how you or anyone else could possibly be as sure about this as you seem to be based solely on these on-line photos.