Africa,Naga,SEAsia?

Conogre · 16th April 2005, 08:48 PM

I've not seen anything even vaguely similar and I'll be keenly interested to see what developes.
I suspect that it's a custom made piece, but even that is just a wild guess.
The only scabbards I've seen with such a spike are the contemporary "ninja" scabbards.
Very strange.
Mike

Tim Simmons · 16th April 2005, 09:00 PM

On much closer inspection,I think the blade may well have a western origin,not a bayonet as it is too flexable and absolutely no sign of a fuller.The forte does not seem to have been modified,that looks a bit too narrow for a machete blade.The bulge in the grip is western?Tim

RSWORD · 16th April 2005, 09:07 PM

OK, I am going to be of some help but also of no help at all. I have a book in Russian on German weapons. There is a sidearm pictured with basically the same hilt type and blade form but alas I cannot read Russian. However, I can make out the date of circa 1920's-30's. I believe I have also seen similar hooked pommel types made in Germany for export to the S American market. An Argentinian model comes to mind but is elusive from my reference books at the moment. The tip of the scabbard appears to be modified with the addition of the spike. Perhaps a WWII trench sidearm with modified scabbard tip.

Tim Simmons · 16th April 2005, 09:19 PM

Hello Rsword,that is very interesting,I have to say it looks early 20th century and has a frontier feel about it.I now wonder if it could be a sidearm used by German and native forces in the little known fighting in German East Africa during ww1.Thank you very much.Tim PS the spike is very East African.

tom hyle · 16th April 2005, 09:50 PM

My guess would be EuroSouth American, but it is an odd one. It bears a certain resemblance to the Weyersberg kirschbaum modelo Argentino 1909s, to cite a military model that seems of the broad type, though not exactly. Could this be Philipino? The tip on the (wooden!) scabbard reminds me of the climbing spike on the bottom of Luzon's Kayan spears. I had a nice Luzon sword that had a resemblance to this...Is the pommel a bird, with defined eyes and a line across the base of the beak?

Tim Simmons · 17th April 2005, 10:52 AM

Hello Tom,that had crossed my mind,I am open to all suggestions,for the time being I am happy with German East Africa, the spike is very much a mini version of the end spike an E African spears.Thanks all Tim.

tom hyle · 17th April 2005, 11:14 AM

In ways, yes, perhaps especially in the decorative(?) effect, but note how it was formed; by being curled up from a flat piece; it looks to me like I can see that not only the hollow part that grabs the sheath, but the long spike, also, was formed this way. This is the way some kayan spikes I've seen are formed. The African spear "ferules" (the old/traditional Euro. collector/anthropologist term for them) I've seen, in contrast, were forged from a rod, whose end was flattened and then curled to form the socket.

Tim Simmons · 17th April 2005, 12:08 PM

Hello,the spike is forged from a rod and is solid.The wood does look very SE Asian but could equally be African.Funny when I first bought it yesterday my thoughts said Philippines.Tim

16th April 2005, 09:19 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Hello Rsword,that is very interesting,I have to say it looks early 20th century and has a frontier feel about it.I now wonder if it could be a sidearm used by German and native forces in the little known fighting in German East Africa during ww1.Thank you very much.Tim PS the spike is very East African. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 16th April 2005 at 09:25 PM. Reason: thinking again

16th April 2005, 08:48 PM	#1
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I've not seen anything even vaguely similar and I'll be keenly interested to see what developes. I suspect that it's a custom made piece, but even that is just a wild guess. The only scabbards I've seen with such a spike are the contemporary "ninja" scabbards. Very strange. Mike

16th April 2005, 09:00 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	On much closer inspection,I think the blade may well have a western origin,not a bayonet as it is too flexable and absolutely no sign of a fuller.The forte does not seem to have been modified,that looks a bit too narrow for a machete blade.The bulge in the grip is western?Tim

16th April 2005, 09:07 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	OK, I am going to be of some help but also of no help at all. I have a book in Russian on German weapons. There is a sidearm pictured with basically the same hilt type and blade form but alas I cannot read Russian. However, I can make out the date of circa 1920's-30's. I believe I have also seen similar hooked pommel types made in Germany for export to the S American market. An Argentinian model comes to mind but is elusive from my reference books at the moment. The tip of the scabbard appears to be modified with the addition of the spike. Perhaps a WWII trench sidearm with modified scabbard tip.

16th April 2005, 09:50 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	My guess would be EuroSouth American, but it is an odd one. It bears a certain resemblance to the Weyersberg kirschbaum modelo Argentino 1909s, to cite a military model that seems of the broad type, though not exactly. Could this be Philipino? The tip on the (wooden!) scabbard reminds me of the climbing spike on the bottom of Luzon's Kayan spears. I had a nice Luzon sword that had a resemblance to this...Is the pommel a bird, with defined eyes and a line across the base of the beak?

17th April 2005, 10:52 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Hello Tom,that had crossed my mind,I am open to all suggestions,for the time being I am happy with German East Africa, the spike is very much a mini version of the end spike an E African spears.Thanks all Tim.

17th April 2005, 11:14 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	In ways, yes, perhaps especially in the decorative(?) effect, but note how it was formed; by being curled up from a flat piece; it looks to me like I can see that not only the hollow part that grabs the sheath, but the long spike, also, was formed this way. This is the way some kayan spikes I've seen are formed. The African spear "ferules" (the old/traditional Euro. collector/anthropologist term for them) I've seen, in contrast, were forged from a rod, whose end was flattened and then curled to form the socket.

17th April 2005, 12:08 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Hello,the spike is forged from a rod and is solid.The wood does look very SE Asian but could equally be African.Funny when I first bought it yesterday my thoughts said Philippines.Tim