Can anyone read Japanese?

migueldiaz · 6th January 2009, 05:08 AM

Here's the 2nd pass of my Tokyo-based Japanese friend.

He qualified that it's not easy to decipher the meaning, but this would be his best try:

[1] 1st to 3rd Kanji is " TEN KA ICHI "
[2] 4th to 5th Kanji is " MATSU MURA "
[3] 6th to 8th Kanji is " INA BA JYOU "
[4] 9th to 10th Kanji is " SHIGE YOSHI "

And his best "guess" of what all the above mean is:

"1" is a common name or the generic name for all mirror manufacturers in that period;

"2" is the name of the family that manufactures the mirror;

"3" is the place where the mirror was made; and

"4" is first name of mirror's maker.

drdavid · 6th January 2009, 06:40 AM

Matsu would be a possible for the 木乙 combination, given the variability in kanji over time, a standard version today looks like 枩. Matsumura is a Japanese surname so I think your friend is very likely correct miguel. Sorry to send everyone on a wild goose chase.
david

Atlantia · 6th January 2009, 02:30 PM

So could the Matsumura name denote the clan name, whilst Shige Yoshi is the actual artisan?

I notice the only remaining difference in our experts readings is 'Kami' or 'Jyou'. Does this word form part of the description of where it was made?

Many Thanks
Gene

stekemest · 6th January 2009, 10:51 PM

Quote:

"1" is a common name or the generic name for all mirror manufacturers in that period;

TENKA-ICHI is a honorary title that was originally given to good mirror manufacturers, but later (illegally) used mostly for advertisement reasons.

Atlantia · 7th January 2009, 08:35 PM

So anybody had any thoughts on whether Matsumura name denote the clan name, whilst Shige Yoshi is the actual artisan?

And the difference of opinions about: 'Kami' and 'Jyou'?

Regards
Gene

drdavid · 8th January 2009, 07:55 AM

Hi Gene
finally had a little more time to puzzle at this. Best reference to help out us westerners is Japanese Art Signatures by Self and Hirose. Inaba is one of the 68 provinces used in art signatures. Shigeyoshi is listed as the name of 5 metalworkers and the kanji on this piece do match one of those 5. Sorry no dates for this particular metalworker.
I was not sure about the Kami/Jyou character. Kami can mean lord of, which can precede a makers name but the kanji used for kami in that context is not the kanji we have here. I think Peter's original suggestion of Kase(gu) meaning to work is the correct one rather than the later suggestions.
I also had some second thoughts about the Matsumura bit. Matsumura is a clan name but from a totally different area of Japan and the clan name would normally go immediately before the makers name. Mura probably means village in this context. The Matsu kanji can also be read as Matsue. Matsue is the name of a town in then Inaba (now Tottori) district. So probably it reads something like
'Unique in this world, made by Shigeyoshi, in Matsue village, Inaba '
cheers
David

Atlantia · 8th January 2009, 06:18 PM

Brilliant! Thanks again Dr David!

8th January 2009, 07:55 AM	#6
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Hi Gene finally had a little more time to puzzle at this. Best reference to help out us westerners is Japanese Art Signatures by Self and Hirose. Inaba is one of the 68 provinces used in art signatures. Shigeyoshi is listed as the name of 5 metalworkers and the kanji on this piece do match one of those 5. Sorry no dates for this particular metalworker. I was not sure about the Kami/Jyou character. Kami can mean lord of, which can precede a makers name but the kanji used for kami in that context is not the kanji we have here. I think Peter's original suggestion of Kase(gu) meaning to work is the correct one rather than the later suggestions. I also had some second thoughts about the Matsumura bit. Matsumura is a clan name but from a totally different area of Japan and the clan name would normally go immediately before the makers name. Mura probably means village in this context. The Matsu kanji can also be read as Matsue. Matsue is the name of a town in then Inaba (now Tottori) district. So probably it reads something like 'Unique in this world, made by Shigeyoshi, in Matsue village, Inaba ' cheers David Last edited by drdavid; 8th January 2009 at 08:43 AM.

6th January 2009, 05:08 AM	#1
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Here's the 2nd pass of my Tokyo-based Japanese friend. He qualified that it's not easy to decipher the meaning, but this would be his best try: [1] 1st to 3rd Kanji is " TEN KA ICHI " [2] 4th to 5th Kanji is " MATSU MURA " [3] 6th to 8th Kanji is " INA BA JYOU " [4] 9th to 10th Kanji is " SHIGE YOSHI " And his best "guess" of what all the above mean is: "1" is a common name or the generic name for all mirror manufacturers in that period; "2" is the name of the family that manufactures the mirror; "3" is the place where the mirror was made; and "4" is first name of mirror's maker.

6th January 2009, 06:40 AM	#2
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Matsu would be a possible for the 木乙 combination, given the variability in kanji over time, a standard version today looks like 枩. Matsumura is a Japanese surname so I think your friend is very likely correct miguel. Sorry to send everyone on a wild goose chase. david

6th January 2009, 02:30 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	So could the Matsumura name denote the clan name, whilst Shige Yoshi is the actual artisan? I notice the only remaining difference in our experts readings is 'Kami' or 'Jyou'. Does this word form part of the description of where it was made? Many Thanks Gene

7th January 2009, 08:35 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	So anybody had any thoughts on whether Matsumura name denote the clan name, whilst Shige Yoshi is the actual artisan? And the difference of opinions about: 'Kami' and 'Jyou'? Regards Gene

8th January 2009, 06:18 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Brilliant! Thanks again Dr David!