DURGA Hilt?

[VVV]

Thanks for the explanation.
I have only read one Sundanese Ruwatan in full, it's about the Origin of Kala, were Mahadewi is named Emban Durga in the play.
Do you have the Kris disk by Karsten Sejr-Jensen?
In it there are a couple of really old hilts that is the same style.
I don't either think it's documented before Kerner as it's quite rare.

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Pak Gonjo, and that's about the way I understand it too.

Back in the late 1960's and the 1970's, in Solo and Jogja, I never heard anybody call a keris sajen a "Keris Majapahit", but gradually over the years this term has crept into the local terminology, and now everybody in the markets calls them that.

The first "Durga" hilt I came across was in Malang some time in the 1970's. The seller, and a couple of other people called it a "perempuan" hilt.

During the 1980's and 1990's in Solo several tukang jejeran I knew called it "jejeran wadon".

Nobody I have known, or know now, in Jawa, calls it a "Durga" hilt.

To the best of my knowledge, this term "Durga" originates with a western writer's rather vivid imagination.

It is a nice, colourful name. It sure sounds better than than just "woman".

But if the name is subjected to logical analysis in the context of the nature of the keris, I personally find it very difficult to accept as a true designation for this hilt form.

We can digress into wayang terminolgy & etc, & etc, & etc, but that is just smoke and mirrors. The core question is this:-

where is the evidence, or the properly constructed logical argument, that can provide acceptable support for the name "Durga" to be attached to this hilt form?

In my estimation, there is none.

I agree with you Pak Gonjo:- this name is a modern invention, originating in the west.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

During the 1980's and 1990's in Solo several tukang jejeran I knew called it "jejeran wadon".

Nobody I have known, or know now, in Jawa, calls it a "Durga" hilt.

To the best of my knowledge, this term "Durga" originates with a western writer's rather vivid imagination.
...
I agree with you Pak Gonjo:- this name is a modern invention, originating in the west.

Thanks Alan, especially for the precise word of "smoke and mirror". Yes, Javanese people usually are living very much with such smoke and mirror of the past... Until today.

But I respect very much westerners like Zoetmulder -- and nowadays Niels Mulder and also Australian historian Ricklefs who have made much contribution on Javanese and Indonesian culture, with their vastly research in the past, and their books on Indonesia. And also people like you Alan, that lives for so long with Javanese culture.

Originally Posted by VVV

I have only read one Sundanese Ruwatan in full, it's about the Origin of Kala, were Mahadewi is named Emban Durga in the play.
Do you have the Kris disk by Karsten Sejr-Jensen?
In it there are a couple of really old hilts that is the same style.
I don't either think it's documented before Kerner as it's quite rare.
Michael

Yes Michael, Mr Sejr-Jensen himself gave me the disk, when he and his wife visited Indonesia a couple months ago. They even payed a visit for a little while at my apartement room in Jakarta, after I took him to visit Mr Haryono Guritno -- the writer of "Keris Jawa" book. And I think he saw too, some beautiful keris collection of Jakarta National Museum in Jalan Merdeka Barat -- including some (not balinese kerises) with such kind of hilts...

The pics below, just showing you the comparison between "jejeran wadon" (sorry, I choose the term used by Alan) or "hilt with woman figure", one bigger Balinese, and the two others I think Javanese "jejeran wadon" hilts..

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Gonjo, I know that you are a reader.

As such, you would be aware how easy it is for something to be published by one writer, and then what that writer has presented is picked up by another writer, and then another, and so on and so on, and eventually what the first writer presented becomes fact, fact that is supported by a string of references, but if you track it back to the place where it originated, you sometimes find that it is no more than somebody's good idea, or casual remark.

I think that this is possibly the way we need to look at our Durga hilt. It possibly pleases a lot of people to call it a Durga hilt---that's a really cool name for a keris hilt, and feeds well the Silk Road Syndrome. But I don't believe we can support this designation as an accurate one.

[Jussi M.]

Greetings,

Mr. DUUREN has written about the keris being an earthly approach to a cosmic symbol. - Maybe what we are witnessing here is a proof that there is a extraterrestrial connection between the keris and outer world

Dont you think there is a strong resemblance?



Thanks,

J

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

Greetings,

Mr. DUUREN has written about the keris being an earthly approach to a cosmic symbol. - Maybe what we are witnessing here is a proof that there is a extraterrestrial connection between the keris and outer world

Dont you think there is a strong resemblance?



Thanks,

J

Great

[Rick]

Indeed !
Amazing the sources Hollywood can access .

[Tim Simmons]

If not locally known as Durga in the recent past, does that mean it is not a representation of what Durga is? would it be concidered correct to be brazen about a Hindu image?

This is quite interesting, the "Historical Perspective" seems to suggest that in some ways Durga is still present.
http://www.asianart.com/articles/durga/index.html