DURGA Hilt?

VVV · 2nd January 2009, 10:15 AM

Ganja,

Thanks for the nice reference pictures as well as for sharing the interesting story about Gendheng Permoni, that I haven't heard before.
In the European collections it seems like the old keris with this kind of hilt were collected in outmost East Java/Blambangan and Bali, not the Cirebon/Banyumas area?

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 2nd January 2009, 12:38 PM

Is there any source predating 1940 that gives a name to this hilt form?

ganjawulung · 2nd January 2009, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Ganja,

Thanks for the nice reference pictures as well as for sharing the interesting story about Gendheng Permoni, that I haven't heard before.
In the European collections it seems like the old keris with this kind of hilt were collected in outmost East Java/Blambangan and Bali, not the Cirebon/Banyumas area?
Michael

Dear Michael, every traditional Javanese who likes wayang, is usually familiar with this popular figure -- Gendheng Permoni, a very popular nickname of Bathari Durga in Jawa. And this "Gendheng Permoni" name, is not only used in Central Java or East Jawa, but even in "wayang golek" -- another genre of wayang with wooden rod-puppet of West Jawa.

As you know, West Java speak Sundanese and sometimes not understand Javanese, while Central Java and East Java, speaks Javanese -- and sometimes they don't understand Sundanese dialect. Either Wayang Golek in West Jawa, or Wayang Kulit (leather puppet) are still living until now, and still performed in villages in West Jawa, or Central and East Jawa. Some live-performance, also broadcasted in some local television.

According to wayang story (not Hindhu story, although wayang is also a Hindhu folk art), Gendheng Permoni lives in Kahyangan Setra Gandamayit (Kingdom of corpse-smelled forest) in Forest of Krendawahana. A place where all kind of ghost, genie and all kinds of spirits are living...

Bathara Kala, is the husband of Gendheng Permoni or Bathari Durga. Batara Kala is the sperm of Bathara Guru -- which once fell in the sea, while Bathara Guru and Dewi Uma were "travelling" on Lembu Andini, or sacred buffallo of Andini. According to "wayang-belief", Batara Kala used to eat "sukerta" children. Sukerta children, for instance -- only child in family, or twin children with different sex... etc So, every "sukerta children" must be specially treated in a special ceremony, called "ruwatan"... (Sukuh Temple told this special rite, in Sudamala story) to avoid from Bathara Kala...

Back to the so called "durga hilt". Are we sure, that this type of hilt only found in Blambangan and Bali?

Blambangan, maybe exist. But I don't think this type of hilt -- the smaller size -- is balinese. But possibly too West Jawa, and western part of Central Jawa -- around Banyumas. (The site of former Hindu Segaluh Kingdom)

As you know, there had been two Hindhu kingdoms in West Jawa between 10th to 13th century -- Pajajaran Kingdom, and Segaluh Kingdom... But during Hindhu Mataram (not Islamic Mataram in 16th century) king Empu Sindok -- 10th century -- the kingdom moved to East Jawa, because of the devastating volcano eruptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Is there any source predating 1940 that gives a name to this hilt form?

i don't have any source on this hilt name. What I told you in the previous post, is only "locally known today" in Cirebon. I don't even ever hear the name of "durga hilt" before, until mentioned sometimes ago in this warung kopi.

Maybe like "keris majapahit" mentioned by western expert, but locally in Jawa they call such kerises as "keris sajen". In Malaysia, they call this javanese "keris sajen" (offering kerises) as "keris pichit"...

Hopefully my limited ability in English doesn't make you misunderstood...

GANJAWULUNG

VVV · 2nd January 2009, 10:07 PM

Thanks for the explanation.
I have only read one Sundanese Ruwatan in full, it's about the Origin of Kala, were Mahadewi is named Emban Durga in the play.
Do you have the Kris disk by Karsten Sejr-Jensen?
In it there are a couple of really old hilts that is the same style.
I don't either think it's documented before Kerner as it's quite rare.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 2nd January 2009, 11:16 PM

Yes Pak Gonjo, and that's about the way I understand it too.

Back in the late 1960's and the 1970's, in Solo and Jogja, I never heard anybody call a keris sajen a "Keris Majapahit", but gradually over the years this term has crept into the local terminology, and now everybody in the markets calls them that.

The first "Durga" hilt I came across was in Malang some time in the 1970's. The seller, and a couple of other people called it a "perempuan" hilt.

During the 1980's and 1990's in Solo several tukang jejeran I knew called it "jejeran wadon".

Nobody I have known, or know now, in Jawa, calls it a "Durga" hilt.

To the best of my knowledge, this term "Durga" originates with a western writer's rather vivid imagination.

It is a nice, colourful name. It sure sounds better than than just "woman".

But if the name is subjected to logical analysis in the context of the nature of the keris, I personally find it very difficult to accept as a true designation for this hilt form.

We can digress into wayang terminolgy & etc, & etc, & etc, but that is just smoke and mirrors. The core question is this:-

where is the evidence, or the properly constructed logical argument, that can provide acceptable support for the name "Durga" to be attached to this hilt form?

In my estimation, there is none.

I agree with you Pak Gonjo:- this name is a modern invention, originating in the west.

ganjawulung · 3rd January 2009, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

During the 1980's and 1990's in Solo several tukang jejeran I knew called it "jejeran wadon".

Nobody I have known, or know now, in Jawa, calls it a "Durga" hilt.

To the best of my knowledge, this term "Durga" originates with a western writer's rather vivid imagination.
...
I agree with you Pak Gonjo:- this name is a modern invention, originating in the west.

Thanks Alan, especially for the precise word of "smoke and mirror". Yes, Javanese people usually are living very much with such smoke and mirror of the past... Until today.

But I respect very much westerners like Zoetmulder -- and nowadays Niels Mulder and also Australian historian Ricklefs who have made much contribution on Javanese and Indonesian culture, with their vastly research in the past, and their books on Indonesia. And also people like you Alan, that lives for so long with Javanese culture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I have only read one Sundanese Ruwatan in full, it's about the Origin of Kala, were Mahadewi is named Emban Durga in the play.
Do you have the Kris disk by Karsten Sejr-Jensen?
In it there are a couple of really old hilts that is the same style.
I don't either think it's documented before Kerner as it's quite rare.
Michael

Yes Michael, Mr Sejr-Jensen himself gave me the disk, when he and his wife visited Indonesia a couple months ago. They even payed a visit for a little while at my apartement room in Jakarta, after I took him to visit Mr Haryono Guritno -- the writer of "Keris Jawa" book. And I think he saw too, some beautiful keris collection of Jakarta National Museum in Jalan Merdeka Barat -- including some (not balinese kerises) with such kind of hilts...

The pics below, just showing you the comparison between "jejeran wadon" (sorry, I choose the term used by Alan) or "hilt with woman figure", one bigger Balinese, and the two others I think Javanese "jejeran wadon" hilts..

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2009, 03:48 AM

Pak Gonjo, I know that you are a reader.

As such, you would be aware how easy it is for something to be published by one writer, and then what that writer has presented is picked up by another writer, and then another, and so on and so on, and eventually what the first writer presented becomes fact, fact that is supported by a string of references, but if you track it back to the place where it originated, you sometimes find that it is no more than somebody's good idea, or casual remark.

I think that this is possibly the way we need to look at our Durga hilt. It possibly pleases a lot of people to call it a Durga hilt---that's a really cool name for a keris hilt, and feeds well the Silk Road Syndrome. But I don't believe we can support this designation as an accurate one.

Jussi M. · 3rd January 2009, 12:05 PM

Greetings,

Mr. DUUREN has written about the keris being an earthly approach to a cosmic symbol. - Maybe what we are witnessing here is a proof that there is a extraterrestrial connection between the keris and outer world

Dont you think there is a strong resemblance?

Thanks,

J

Marcokeris · 3rd January 2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

Greetings,

Mr. DUUREN has written about the keris being an earthly approach to a cosmic symbol. - Maybe what we are witnessing here is a proof that there is a extraterrestrial connection between the keris and outer world

Dont you think there is a strong resemblance?

Thanks,

J

Great

2nd January 2009, 10:15 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Ganja, Thanks for the nice reference pictures as well as for sharing the interesting story about Gendheng Permoni, that I haven't heard before. In the European collections it seems like the old keris with this kind of hilt were collected in outmost East Java/Blambangan and Bali, not the Cirebon/Banyumas area? Michael

2nd January 2009, 12:38 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Is there any source predating 1940 that gives a name to this hilt form?

2nd January 2009, 10:07 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for the explanation. I have only read one Sundanese Ruwatan in full, it's about the Origin of Kala, were Mahadewi is named Emban Durga in the play. Do you have the Kris disk by Karsten Sejr-Jensen? In it there are a couple of really old hilts that is the same style. I don't either think it's documented before Kerner as it's quite rare. Michael

2nd January 2009, 11:16 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Yes Pak Gonjo, and that's about the way I understand it too. Back in the late 1960's and the 1970's, in Solo and Jogja, I never heard anybody call a keris sajen a "Keris Majapahit", but gradually over the years this term has crept into the local terminology, and now everybody in the markets calls them that. The first "Durga" hilt I came across was in Malang some time in the 1970's. The seller, and a couple of other people called it a "perempuan" hilt. During the 1980's and 1990's in Solo several tukang jejeran I knew called it "jejeran wadon". Nobody I have known, or know now, in Jawa, calls it a "Durga" hilt. To the best of my knowledge, this term "Durga" originates with a western writer's rather vivid imagination. It is a nice, colourful name. It sure sounds better than than just "woman". But if the name is subjected to logical analysis in the context of the nature of the keris, I personally find it very difficult to accept as a true designation for this hilt form. We can digress into wayang terminolgy & etc, & etc, & etc, but that is just smoke and mirrors. The core question is this:- where is the evidence, or the properly constructed logical argument, that can provide acceptable support for the name "Durga" to be attached to this hilt form? In my estimation, there is none. I agree with you Pak Gonjo:- this name is a modern invention, originating in the west.

3rd January 2009, 03:48 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Pak Gonjo, I know that you are a reader. As such, you would be aware how easy it is for something to be published by one writer, and then what that writer has presented is picked up by another writer, and then another, and so on and so on, and eventually what the first writer presented becomes fact, fact that is supported by a string of references, but if you track it back to the place where it originated, you sometimes find that it is no more than somebody's good idea, or casual remark. I think that this is possibly the way we need to look at our Durga hilt. It possibly pleases a lot of people to call it a Durga hilt---that's a really cool name for a keris hilt, and feeds well the Silk Road Syndrome. But I don't believe we can support this designation as an accurate one.

3rd January 2009, 12:05 PM	#8
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Greetings, Mr. DUUREN has written about the keris being an earthly approach to a cosmic symbol. - Maybe what we are witnessing here is a proof that there is a extraterrestrial connection between the keris and outer world Dont you think there is a strong resemblance? Thanks, J