SWORD for comment and I D please

Atlantia · 29th December 2008, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Stu,

Very attractive cavalry officers 'walloon' type sword, probably Continental and end of the 18th century to early 19th. It seems like this form was widely used for military officers by many countries, so we would need to really hit the typology references to really narrow it down. The scallop shell decoration may offer some telling definition. That blade cross section seems unusual as well. More research needed of course, but this is the trail to follow in my perception.

All best regards,
Jim

I'd say you are pretty much bang on the button Jim.

It's a Walloon, and I'd agree the simple bronze form of the guard is later, I'd have said last 1/4 of the 18thC, possibly a little earlier if I had to guess.

IMHO its not British, and without finding some marks on the blade I'd possibly lean towards it being Dutch with 2x?? added because thats just a first impression.

Regards
Gene

celtan · 30th December 2008, 12:56 AM

What exactly do you call a walloon?

For me, this is walloon (belgian) , and I don't see any similarities...

The perforated hand cover is missing in mine...

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I'd say you are pretty much bang on the button Jim.

It's a Walloon, and I'd agree the simple bronze form of the guard is later, I'd have said last 1/4 of the 18thC, possibly a little earlier if I had to guess.

IMHO its not British, and without finding some marks on the blade I'd possibly lean towards it being Dutch with 2x?? added because thats just a first impression.

Regards
Gene

Atlantia · 30th December 2008, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

What exactly do you call a walloon?

For me, this is walloon (belgian) , and I don't see any similarities...

The perforated hand cover is missing in mine...

M

Hi Manuel,
Any excuse to show off that beauty!

These are quite varied, and produced for a long period. There is some variation in style, and yours is a rather fine one.
Some even have a single sided guard if memory serves.

Regards
Gene

kahnjar1 · 30th December 2008, 04:28 AM

Hi, and thanks for the replies so far from those who have answered.

Consensus seems to suggest a Walloon, but I sense some doubt.
I have had a look at all references to Walloon that I can fine in my books, and although the hilt is SIMILAR, it is not in my mind a definate identification.
WHAT ABOUT THE BLADE??
I have yet to see an illustration showing this blade profile. All that I have seen on illustrations of Walloon have fullers, or are what I would call standard blade profile.
What do you think?

Atlantia · 30th December 2008, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi, and thanks for the replies so far from those who have answered.

Consensus seems to suggest a Walloon, but I sense some doubt.
I have had a look at all references to Walloon that I can fine in my books, and although the hilt is SIMILAR, it is not in my mind a definate identification.
WHAT ABOUT THE BLADE??
I have yet to see an illustration showing this blade profile. All that I have seen on illustrations of Walloon have fullers, or are what I would call standard blade profile.
What do you think?

I think possibly everyone is right to some extent here. This may be a late sword of the walloon style, not quite a 1796 heavy cavalry officers sword, but in that line of evolution.

If thats the case there is probobly some merit in calling it a walloon-esq Cavalry officers sword.

Can you post measurements and tell us if there are any markings on it at all?

Gene

P.S. I'll go back and hit the books and see if there is a similar one anywhere. Between us we must have one like it pictured.

kahnjar1 · 30th December 2008, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I think possibly everyone is right to some extent here. This may be a late sword of the walloon style, not quite a 1796 heavy cavalry officers sword, but in that line of evolution.

If thats the case there is probobly some merit in calling it a walloon-esq Cavalry officers sword.

Can you post measurements and tell us if there are any markings on it at all?

Gene

P.S. I'll go back and hit the books and see if there is a similar one anywhere. Between us we must have one like it pictured.

Hi Gene,
No marks whatsoever. Overall it is 37 1/2" (955mm) and the blade is 30 1/2" (775mm). Blade is absolutely straight, both edges blunt (never sharpened by look of it) but tip sharp.
Regards Stuart

Gavin Nugent · 30th December 2008, 07:14 AM

G'day Stu,

The peened tang in one image there doesn't look to me as the original finish I would expect to see on a European sword, maybe a better photo might say otherwise??? It might be a marriage of some sort rather than a regulation weapon?

Gav

celtan · 30th December 2008, 01:07 PM

Hi Gene,

Thanks for the kind words. This one is certailnly one of my favorites, I like the way it feels on my grip.

Which reminds me: I just let go of one of my swords, a US CW Cavalry saber that feels equally pleasant. A pity, I'm now sorry I placed it on auction, too late though, since I must honor my commitment. But certain swords do leave a pleasant feeling after handling them.

Back to the sword at hand. What characteristics makes one sword a Walloon?

Is this sword a Walloon?

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Manuel,
Any excuse to show off that beauty!

These are quite varied, and produced for a long period. There is some variation in style, and yours is a rather fine one.
Some even have a single sided guard if memory serves.

Regards
Gene

Atlantia · 30th December 2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Gene,

Thanks for the kind words. This one is certailnly one of my favorites, I like the way it feels on my grip.

Which reminds me: I just let go of one of my swords, a US CW Cavalry saber that feels equally pleasant. A pity, I'm now sorry I placed it on auction, too late though, since I must honor my commitment. But certain swords do leave a pleasant feeling after handling them.

Back to the sword at hand. What characteristics makes one sword a Walloon?

Is this sword a Walloon?

M

Hi Manuel,

Your real walloon is one of my favourites too!

As for whether these bronze hilted double edged swords are strictly 'part of the family' I always thought they were the end of the evolution.
I know they are often just called 'cavalry swords' but until they go to the single edged blade I always thought of them as part of the walloon line....
Looks like I might be wrong on that!

celtan · 30th December 2008, 03:58 PM

Thank you kindly Gene,

How would you classify the last sword I presented to you? Its blade has a foliate blade with a resulting raised central ridge on one side and a central depression viceversa, inscribed Vivat Carolus XI Domine meus. ie. a Swedish 17th C blade. The hilt is strange. cavalry? Early-Mid 19th C.? The grip is also difficult to precisely date, showing another urn-pommel. (Late 18th C.?) plus a rather modern looking grip cover.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Manuel,

Your real walloon is one of my favourites too!

As for whether these bronze hilted double edged swords are strictly 'part of the family' I always thought they were the end of the evolution.
I know they are often just called 'cavalry swords' but until they go to the single edged blade I always thought of them as part of the walloon line....
Looks like I might be wrong on that!

Atlantia · 30th December 2008, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Thank you kindly Gene,

How would you classify the last sword I presented to you? Its blade has four concave faces with a raised central ridge, inscribed Vivat Carolus XI Domine meus. ie. a Swedish 17th C blade. The hilt is strange. cavalry? Early-Mid 19th C.? The grip is also difficult to precisely date, showing another urn-pommel. (Late 18th C.?) pkus a rather modern looking grip cover.

Best

M

Hi Manuel,
I may just be digging myself a deeper hole here, but I'll have a go!
The sword in your picture has the 'walloon-esq' guard, which I'm from now on just going to call 'horsemans swords' LOL and as with Stuarts, a double edged blade, which you think is a remount?
It also has the Urn shaped pommel which makes me think late 18thC, but I've seen them on swords described as mid 18thC.

I know the 1796 pattern British swords were used through to the 1820-30s, but wasn't the fashion for single edged blades exclusively by then?

Why are yours and Stuarts remounted with older blades?
Could they represent a transitional period? Or a cost cutting measure? Or even be colonial pieces?

What are your thoughts?

Regards
Gene

30th December 2008, 07:14 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The peened tang G'day Stu, The peened tang in one image there doesn't look to me as the original finish I would expect to see on a European sword, maybe a better photo might say otherwise??? It might be a marriage of some sort rather than a regulation weapon? Gav

30th December 2008, 04:28 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Hi, and thanks for the replies so far from those who have answered. Consensus seems to suggest a Walloon, but I sense some doubt. I have had a look at all references to Walloon that I can fine in my books, and although the hilt is SIMILAR, it is not in my mind a definate identification. WHAT ABOUT THE BLADE?? I have yet to see an illustration showing this blade profile. All that I have seen on illustrations of Walloon have fullers, or are what I would call standard blade profile. What do you think?