Formosa Hill Tribe Swords ( for Yuanzhumin )

Tim Simmons · 28th December 2008, 06:34 PM

This one also, with the same staining to the blade and lack of rattan to the handle.
http://www.formosatribal.com/show.php?item_id=67

KuKulzA28 · 7th January 2009, 11:04 AM

Can you guys tell if this is authentic?

The sheath makes me think Paiwan maybe... to my untrained eyes it seems very similar to these Paiwanese sword examples....

however it lacks that large rectangular piece... not sure, it's perhaps a nice looking but old and broken tourist piece, or an actual Aboriginal blade...

Tim Simmons · 7th January 2009, 04:22 PM

There is something lacking in the figure carving which makes me thick you have a tourist piece. I have a similar straight blade like that with a plain scabbard, foreign stamped on the blade. Interestingly the blade is good quality well made and sharp. I cannot show it as it lives in the roof space with a few other errors in judgement.

KuKulzA28 · 7th January 2009, 04:53 PM

mmm, you're right about the carving, it does lack a bit in finesse, or at least not the same as you see in Paiwan sheaths usually... perhaps others will speak up about this... but thanks for your help, I agree, it's probably touristy

Rick · 7th January 2009, 05:49 PM

Is the blade laminated on a core ?
This is older work tourist or not and as such still has value .
I don't think their equal is being produced today .

Our man on the scene would know more about that aspect .

yuanzhumin · 18th January 2009, 03:48 AM

Hello everybody,
First, I want to thank Tim for mentioning in his posts the link to my collection website (www.formosatribal.com).
Shouldn't there be a picture on the post 28, from Ben ? Tim and Ben are discussing about a sword that I can’t see anywhere in the thread. Did I miss something ?
Lew, your picture is definitely one of Taiwanese aboriginals from the Atayal tribe, in the northern part of the island. Their knives are very similar to the one I display on my website (see the link mentioned by Tim). You’ll have to wait longer to see detailed pictures of Atayal straight blades as I’m away from home for 3 more weeks.
Kukulza 28, the first two knives you have shown in your posts are Taiwanese, yes, but they were commercially made in the 50s/60s to be sold to the American troops stationed in the island. The motives are inspired from the Paiwan but are mixed with an international fusion tribal style. The third knife you displayed is mine and was exhibited last year at the Shisanhang Prehistory Museum, in the Taipei District (www.sshm.tpc.gov.tw).
For the aficionados of Taiwanese tribal/aboriginal art, 4 Paiwan knives (lot 2 and 3) reached a high price at the Sothebys tribal art auction sales of last December. The knives were sold for an average price of more than 5000 euros each.
Yuanzhumin/Nicolas

KuKulzA28 · 18th January 2009, 04:30 AM

so YOU'RE the guy behind the Yang-Grevot collection?!
I've been pouring over those pictures for a long time...
those are some great examples of Aboriginal objects!

I'm Taiwanese American and until I did some research... I didn't even know about the Wushe Rebellion, or the 228 Massacre, or the history of Dutch and Chinese colonization, Koxinga, and the Aborigines throughout it all... it was so enlightening for me to realize that the Kuo Ming Tang flag was one of massacre, assimilation, and oppressive regime... not exactly the crusade against communism that I had been led to believe. I didn't know that I may very well be part aborigine like many Hoklos. I'm now very interested in my heritage, historically, culturally... and of course in the martial arts and weaponry area as well.

kronckew · 18th February 2022, 01:27 AM

Thought I'd ressurect and add to this old comprehensive thread. Comments welcome.
================================================== ===

Recently acquired a modern traditionally made Formosan (Taiwanese) Lalaw.
71 cm. overall in scabbard.
41 cm. blade, 5.5 cm. at widest. Distal tapered spine 6 mm. at grip,3 mm. just behind the point.

Sharp, convex grind. Hammered black forge finish. Through tang peened over pommel cap.
14 cm. grip
460 grams ex. scabbard.
Scabbard & grip is stained/varnished (not opaque painted), reddish, with black stained decorations on scabbard, wood grain shows thru.
Red Bronze (Samrit?) fittings & staples. Braided/spliced (cotton?) baldric.

See also : Preliminary Classification of Taiwanese knives & swords from August 2020.

Koxinga · 18th February 2022, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Thought I'd ressurect and add to this old comprehensive thread. Comments welcome.
================================================== ===

See also : Preliminary Classification of Taiwanese knives & swords from August 2020.

Thanks for sharing my article!
I believe the Lalaw you have there was made by Cas Hanwei, modeled after the Seediq slmadac that was used for the movie Seediq Bale:
https://www.caesars.com.sg/fixed-bla...al-sword-.html

As far as I’m aware, Northern indigenous Taiwanese Knives tended to have a single beveled chisel grind, and the hand hammered appearance is more of a modern stylistic choice. The tang is usually bent over rather than peened if it is exposed at all. The fittings should be tied to the holes on the side of the scabbard rather than the top.
The decorated scabbard is rare but not unseen in northern blades.

Hopefully this was helpful

JeffS · 18th February 2022, 11:34 AM

An antique of that style recently sold at auction (Tully's, described as a Moro barong). I have seen and admired new Atayal blades like yours but had not, until this auction, seen what it was modeled after - with the distinct handle shape and red/black color scheme and designs. I'm still gutted that someone else spotted it and outbid me.

kronckew · 18th February 2022, 05:08 PM

I saw that one too, went for more money than i could afford.

Ian · 19th February 2022, 06:37 AM

I saw that lot also and actually placed a bid. I was outbid nearly fourfold by the winner. I think one of the other items, what may have been a gold decorated khoummya with rhino hilt, drew the high bid.

I believe the Taiwan knife is from one of the Pingpu clans and dated to the 19th C. A rare and very nice transitional example to the more sinocized versions of the late 19th and 20th C. BTW, I think kronckew's post above is also in the Pingpu style of the 19th C. For more information, search for "Pingpu knife Taiwan."

Win some/lose some.

18th January 2009, 03:48 AM	#6
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	TAIWAN/FORMOSAN KNIVES Hello everybody, First, I want to thank Tim for mentioning in his posts the link to my collection website (www.formosatribal.com). Shouldn't there be a picture on the post 28, from Ben ? Tim and Ben are discussing about a sword that I can’t see anywhere in the thread. Did I miss something ? Lew, your picture is definitely one of Taiwanese aboriginals from the Atayal tribe, in the northern part of the island. Their knives are very similar to the one I display on my website (see the link mentioned by Tim). You’ll have to wait longer to see detailed pictures of Atayal straight blades as I’m away from home for 3 more weeks. Kukulza 28, the first two knives you have shown in your posts are Taiwanese, yes, but they were commercially made in the 50s/60s to be sold to the American troops stationed in the island. The motives are inspired from the Paiwan but are mixed with an international fusion tribal style. The third knife you displayed is mine and was exhibited last year at the Shisanhang Prehistory Museum, in the Taipei District (www.sshm.tpc.gov.tw). For the aficionados of Taiwanese tribal/aboriginal art, 4 Paiwan knives (lot 2 and 3) reached a high price at the Sothebys tribal art auction sales of last December. The knives were sold for an average price of more than 5000 euros each. Yuanzhumin/Nicolas

18th February 2022, 01:27 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Thought I'd ressurect and add to this old comprehensive thread. Comments welcome. ================================================== === Recently acquired a modern traditionally made Formosan (Taiwanese) Lalaw. 71 cm. overall in scabbard. 41 cm. blade, 5.5 cm. at widest. Distal tapered spine 6 mm. at grip,3 mm. just behind the point. Sharp, convex grind. Hammered black forge finish. Through tang peened over pommel cap. 14 cm. grip 460 grams ex. scabbard. Scabbard & grip is stained/varnished (not opaque painted), reddish, with black stained decorations on scabbard, wood grain shows thru. Red Bronze (Samrit?) fittings & staples. Braided/spliced (cotton?) baldric. See also : Preliminary Classification of Taiwanese knives & swords from August 2020. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 18th February 2022 at 02:04 AM.

18th February 2022, 11:34 AM	#10
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 423	An antique of that style recently sold at auction (Tully's, described as a Moro barong). I have seen and admired new Atayal blades like yours but had not, until this auction, seen what it was modeled after - with the distinct handle shape and red/black color scheme and designs. I'm still gutted that someone else spotted it and outbid me. Attached Images

28th December 2008, 06:34 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	This one also, with the same staining to the blade and lack of rattan to the handle. http://www.formosatribal.com/show.php?item_id=67

7th January 2009, 11:04 AM	#2
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Can you guys tell if this is authentic? The sheath makes me think Paiwan maybe... to my untrained eyes it seems very similar to these Paiwanese sword examples.... however it lacks that large rectangular piece... not sure, it's perhaps a nice looking but old and broken tourist piece, or an actual Aboriginal blade...

7th January 2009, 04:22 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	There is something lacking in the figure carving which makes me thick you have a tourist piece. I have a similar straight blade like that with a plain scabbard, foreign stamped on the blade. Interestingly the blade is good quality well made and sharp. I cannot show it as it lives in the roof space with a few other errors in judgement.

7th January 2009, 04:53 PM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	mmm, you're right about the carving, it does lack a bit in finesse, or at least not the same as you see in Paiwan sheaths usually... perhaps others will speak up about this... but thanks for your help, I agree, it's probably touristy

7th January 2009, 05:49 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Is the blade laminated on a core ? This is older work tourist or not and as such still has value . I don't think their equal is being produced today . Our man on the scene would know more about that aspect .

18th January 2009, 04:30 AM	#7
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	so YOU'RE the guy behind the Yang-Grevot collection?! I've been pouring over those pictures for a long time... those are some great examples of Aboriginal objects! I'm Taiwanese American and until I did some research... I didn't even know about the Wushe Rebellion, or the 228 Massacre, or the history of Dutch and Chinese colonization, Koxinga, and the Aborigines throughout it all... it was so enlightening for me to realize that the Kuo Ming Tang flag was one of massacre, assimilation, and oppressive regime... not exactly the crusade against communism that I had been led to believe. I didn't know that I may very well be part aborigine like many Hoklos. I'm now very interested in my heritage, historically, culturally... and of course in the martial arts and weaponry area as well.

18th February 2022, 05:08 PM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	I saw that one too, went for more money than i could afford.

19th February 2022, 06:37 AM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	I saw that lot also and actually placed a bid. I was outbid nearly fourfold by the winner. I think one of the other items, what may have been a gold decorated khoummya with rhino hilt, drew the high bid. I believe the Taiwan knife is from one of the Pingpu clans and dated to the 19th C. A rare and very nice transitional example to the more sinocized versions of the late 19th and 20th C. BTW, I think kronckew's post above is also in the Pingpu style of the 19th C. For more information, search for "Pingpu knife Taiwan." Win some/lose some.