Mystery Jewish Sword From Atlas Mountains???

Tim Simmons · 11th December 2004, 08:36 PM

Hi Yannis, some people think we do.I am only the messenger.If you Know better then please show us all.Tim

Yannis · 11th December 2004, 10:50 PM

I dont understand why but uploading pictures dont work for me today. Anyway this is the authentic kopis

and here is a modern reproduction

http://www.armae.com/antiquite/1144falcata.htm

Yannis · 11th December 2004, 11:00 PM

Stupid me

I had forgot how we upload

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2004, 02:52 AM

Rick,
Excellent observations!! You are right on target noting the similarity to Indian bird head khanjar hilts with distinct beak protrusion. These occur on Indian short swords, with most seeming to originate in northern regions, particularly Rajasthan. The blades are of varying length and form, some are serpentine(nagan) with shikargar (hunting scene) motif and some are about 22" with sosun pattah blade and reinforced armor piercing point.

I also agree with your note on the Moroccan motif. It is interesting that the scabbard carries both side mount carrying rings as well as an opposite ring at scabbard throat in Arabian favored baldric style. These baldric mounts are most typical for the Moroccan 'khoummya' daggers. The high relief motif on the scabbard also suggests the 'agrab' (scorpion) talismanic symbolism found on many Arabian scabbard mounts. Many of these were manufactured in India, typically Hyderabad, for export to Arabia.

The trade routes that prevailed between India's Malabar Coast, the Red Sea and the Maghreb were long established and account for the diffusion of considerable weapon forms.

The presence of Sephardic Jews of course were well established in Morocco from early times after fleeing Spain. They were outstanding artisans who were known for brilliant workmanship on weapons mountings, and were also trade merchants who travelled with Saharan caravans. It would not be unreasonable to consider such a weapon as this mounted in Morocco and influenced by the khanjar form hilts from India. While not actually a Jewish sword, it may well have been crafted by a Jewish artisan and traded by that community.

Tim,
Could you please note the location of the material in Spring on the birdhead pommel you mention?

Yannis,
Excellent note on the kopis!!

VVV:
There is often considerable difficulty and constant debate about the application of specific terms to certain weapons. It becomes even more complicated when a weapon is hybridized or outside its presumed cultural sphere. In this case, pending more conclusive research, it would be most safe to rely on description more than specific names, thus short sabre or hanger from Morocco with Indian khanjar form hilt.

Best regards,
Jim

Rivkin · 12th December 2004, 03:15 AM

My memory can betray me, but I think Morocco was one of a few muslim countries that allowed jews to carry weapons, indeed most of them did wear daggers since the end of XIX century.

However was there anything specific about their khandjars, I would not know.

Tim Simmons · 12th December 2004, 09:55 AM

Jim,The British Museum publication,Afican Arms and Armour by C.Spring ,ISBN 0-7141-2508-3, pages 22-23 does not mention specific materials but does mention {versions} of a sabre-like weapon with birds head pommel.It also speculates an Asian origin rather than Mediterranean for development of the Kopis.Tim

VVV · 12th December 2004, 09:54 PM

Thank you all for helping me learn more about this sword!!!

Mike

11th December 2004, 11:00 PM	#3
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Stupid me I had forgot how we upload Attached Images

11th December 2004, 08:36 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Hi Yannis, some people think we do.I am only the messenger.If you Know better then please show us all.Tim

11th December 2004, 10:50 PM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I dont understand why but uploading pictures dont work for me today. Anyway this is the authentic kopis and here is a modern reproduction http://www.armae.com/antiquite/1144falcata.htm

12th December 2004, 02:52 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Rick, Excellent observations!! You are right on target noting the similarity to Indian bird head khanjar hilts with distinct beak protrusion. These occur on Indian short swords, with most seeming to originate in northern regions, particularly Rajasthan. The blades are of varying length and form, some are serpentine(nagan) with shikargar (hunting scene) motif and some are about 22" with sosun pattah blade and reinforced armor piercing point. I also agree with your note on the Moroccan motif. It is interesting that the scabbard carries both side mount carrying rings as well as an opposite ring at scabbard throat in Arabian favored baldric style. These baldric mounts are most typical for the Moroccan 'khoummya' daggers. The high relief motif on the scabbard also suggests the 'agrab' (scorpion) talismanic symbolism found on many Arabian scabbard mounts. Many of these were manufactured in India, typically Hyderabad, for export to Arabia. The trade routes that prevailed between India's Malabar Coast, the Red Sea and the Maghreb were long established and account for the diffusion of considerable weapon forms. The presence of Sephardic Jews of course were well established in Morocco from early times after fleeing Spain. They were outstanding artisans who were known for brilliant workmanship on weapons mountings, and were also trade merchants who travelled with Saharan caravans. It would not be unreasonable to consider such a weapon as this mounted in Morocco and influenced by the khanjar form hilts from India. While not actually a Jewish sword, it may well have been crafted by a Jewish artisan and traded by that community. Tim, Could you please note the location of the material in Spring on the birdhead pommel you mention? Yannis, Excellent note on the kopis!! VVV: There is often considerable difficulty and constant debate about the application of specific terms to certain weapons. It becomes even more complicated when a weapon is hybridized or outside its presumed cultural sphere. In this case, pending more conclusive research, it would be most safe to rely on description more than specific names, thus short sabre or hanger from Morocco with Indian khanjar form hilt. Best regards, Jim

12th December 2004, 03:15 AM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	My memory can betray me, but I think Morocco was one of a few muslim countries that allowed jews to carry weapons, indeed most of them did wear daggers since the end of XIX century. However was there anything specific about their khandjars, I would not know.

12th December 2004, 09:55 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Jim,The British Museum publication,Afican Arms and Armour by C.Spring ,ISBN 0-7141-2508-3, pages 22-23 does not mention specific materials but does mention {versions} of a sabre-like weapon with birds head pommel.It also speculates an Asian origin rather than Mediterranean for development of the Kopis.Tim

12th December 2004, 09:54 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thank you all for helping me learn more about this sword!!! Mike