A Cirebon (put-together) keris

tunggulametung · 14th December 2008, 04:12 PM

Hello BluErf,

Probably better to wait until next time you find a decent Cirebon set one as the hilt seems need to be retired, but that's just an opinion; or at least get a temporary mendak to compliment the set and remember don't fit too tight

. The hilt was acquired in Jakarta from someone who knows too little about keris. Without having sufficient reference, at first I thought it was Sumatran as I don't recognize the ornament. But DD from Germany inform me that it is Nyamba style, to which I later agree even it is different from what I previously preceive as Nyamba style.

To my knowledge Nyamba style is a wayang figure inspired hilt. But why Samba? I don't know. On Ensiklopedi Wayang Purwa (seems to be extracted from different sources), there are two characters of Samba, the first one is Sanghyang Samba, later known as Sanghyang Batara Guru. The second one is Samba the son of Sri Kresna, an army chief commander who usually supported by Batara Durga when he needs help. But what interesting is Samba as also known as Wisnubrata in Central Java is not an idol figure while in West Java he is an ideal/brave army figure. Another interesting information is that in Madura, Samba often described with a tail since her mother is Dewi Jembawati is a daughter of resi Jembawan-a monkey character. So maybe West Java?

I think this Samba hilt relates to the so we known as Cirebon Raksasa or Jawa Demam up to whatever similar in the Malay/Bugis world. But as usual it just a wild guest (to put it better: an imagination without enough reference), I might be unable to proof. Just observe at the figure, which so similar with Cirebon Raksasa. As for where its originates, maybe anywhere with wayang background. But how about the idea of Banten/Bantam? Cirebon was once under this kingdom right? Anyone has a reference?

As we know wayang in Islam period is dehumanized figure (do I use the right term to described "formed into less human like"?

), perhaps the same case in the keris world. Your hilt has the relatively similar hand position but not showing a mudra finger (or it is the stylized ornament between the hands?), but the hand position itself may reflect certain meaning (ancestral?). Further more it might be transformed further to what suit Islam better, a folded hand and the more non-creature or say human like Jawa Demam. All the bird/garuda-like figure on keris world might be a later explanation IMO.

P.S: I remember Adrian Noe's collection has a similar hilt, the one made of gold but the head is lion (?) - sorry I'm not able to find the webpage anymore. It's not a Javanese set, maybe a Sumatran kind.

David · 14th December 2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

P.S: I remember Adrian Noe's collection has a similar hilt, the one made of gold but the head is lion (?) - sorry I'm not able to find the webpage anymore. It's not a Javanese set, maybe a Sumatran kind.

Is this the hilt you are referring to? If so Noe had it's origins listed as Banjarmasin.

Kai Wee, i love this dhapur and have a very similar one in my own collection. I have also seen it identified as Kebo Giri. Does anyone know if this is a correct name variation or just a common keris misnomer?

tunggulametung · 14th December 2008, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Is this the hilt you are referring to? If so Noe had it's origins listed as Banjarmasin.

Kai Wee, i love this dhapur and have a very similar one in my own collection. I have also seen it identified as Kebo Giri. Does anyone know if this is a correct name variation or just a common keris misnomer?

Magic, yes Sir that is the one!
Kebo Giri I would call the dhapur.

Marcokeris · 14th December 2008, 08:50 PM

IMO the A. Noe hit could be also not comes from Kalimantan because Navasari usually has flowers in the hand (sometimes in together hands).
This hit has not flowers and no hand on the back. In true the face seems Navasari Banjarmasin (and also red stones could be from this place) but...i think it could also comes from Jawa or Bali (for bronze or brass material, for position of the body, for ornaments)

A. G. Maisey · 14th December 2008, 10:07 PM

Dhapur names and pamor names can and do change from area to area, from demographic to demographic, and from time to time.

Especially those dhapurs and pamors which are uncommon.

The dhapur of the blade shown by Kai Wee was identified by a spiritual advisor to President Suharto, who was also a mystic and a well known keris collector, as Dhapur Laler Mengeng. This was thirty years ago.

Ten years ago in Jogja it was identified as Mahesa Kanthong by a 70 year old dealer.

At the present time Haryono Haryoguritno identifies it as Kebo Kanthong.

Tunggulametung identifies it as Kebo Giri.

Take your pick.

David, may I ask where you have seen it identified as Kebo Giri?

David · 14th December 2008, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, may I ask where you have seen it identified as Kebo Giri?

Hi Alan. I have seen it called Kebo Giri in a number of places including one shown previously of this forum and eBay auctions. But it is also so named in Ensiklopedi Keris:
http://books.google.com/books?id=cVp...um=6&ct=result
I am aware that in some cases numerous names can be considered correct, but sometimes things get mislabeled and then the misinformation is past on until it becomes the accepted name. So i am not inclined to automatically accept a name just because i have seen it used before.

A. G. Maisey · 15th December 2008, 12:20 AM

Thanks David. I tend not to look at Ensiklopedi much.

Yeah, things do get mis-labelled, and the labels stick. My feeling towards this is that as long as it is within the culture it probably doesn't matter all that much. We've got kraton pakems, and I guess they need to be the last word, but naming of anything in Jawa is far from standardised. In fact the language itself---Javanese---is regarded by linguists as a non-standardised language, so I'm never going to get into a debate about the "correct" name of anything.

As I said:- take your pick.

14th December 2008, 04:12 PM	#1
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Hello BluErf, Probably better to wait until next time you find a decent Cirebon set one as the hilt seems need to be retired, but that's just an opinion; or at least get a temporary mendak to compliment the set and remember don't fit too tight . The hilt was acquired in Jakarta from someone who knows too little about keris. Without having sufficient reference, at first I thought it was Sumatran as I don't recognize the ornament. But DD from Germany inform me that it is Nyamba style, to which I later agree even it is different from what I previously preceive as Nyamba style. To my knowledge Nyamba style is a wayang figure inspired hilt. But why Samba? I don't know. On Ensiklopedi Wayang Purwa (seems to be extracted from different sources), there are two characters of Samba, the first one is Sanghyang Samba, later known as Sanghyang Batara Guru. The second one is Samba the son of Sri Kresna, an army chief commander who usually supported by Batara Durga when he needs help. But what interesting is Samba as also known as Wisnubrata in Central Java is not an idol figure while in West Java he is an ideal/brave army figure. Another interesting information is that in Madura, Samba often described with a tail since her mother is Dewi Jembawati is a daughter of resi Jembawan-a monkey character. So maybe West Java? I think this Samba hilt relates to the so we known as Cirebon Raksasa or Jawa Demam up to whatever similar in the Malay/Bugis world. But as usual it just a wild guest (to put it better: an imagination without enough reference), I might be unable to proof. Just observe at the figure, which so similar with Cirebon Raksasa. As for where its originates, maybe anywhere with wayang background. But how about the idea of Banten/Bantam? Cirebon was once under this kingdom right? Anyone has a reference? As we know wayang in Islam period is dehumanized figure (do I use the right term to described "formed into less human like"? ), perhaps the same case in the keris world. Your hilt has the relatively similar hand position but not showing a mudra finger (or it is the stylized ornament between the hands?), but the hand position itself may reflect certain meaning (ancestral?). Further more it might be transformed further to what suit Islam better, a folded hand and the more non-creature or say human like Jawa Demam. All the bird/garuda-like figure on keris world might be a later explanation IMO. P.S: I remember Adrian Noe's collection has a similar hilt, the one made of gold but the head is lion (?) - sorry I'm not able to find the webpage anymore. It's not a Javanese set, maybe a Sumatran kind.

14th December 2008, 08:50 PM	#4
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	IMO the A. Noe hit could be also not comes from Kalimantan because Navasari usually has flowers in the hand (sometimes in together hands). This hit has not flowers and no hand on the back. In true the face seems Navasari Banjarmasin (and also red stones could be from this place) but...i think it could also comes from Jawa or Bali (for bronze or brass material, for position of the body, for ornaments)

14th December 2008, 10:07 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Dhapur names and pamor names can and do change from area to area, from demographic to demographic, and from time to time. Especially those dhapurs and pamors which are uncommon. The dhapur of the blade shown by Kai Wee was identified by a spiritual advisor to President Suharto, who was also a mystic and a well known keris collector, as Dhapur Laler Mengeng. This was thirty years ago. Ten years ago in Jogja it was identified as Mahesa Kanthong by a 70 year old dealer. At the present time Haryono Haryoguritno identifies it as Kebo Kanthong. Tunggulametung identifies it as Kebo Giri. Take your pick. David, may I ask where you have seen it identified as Kebo Giri?

15th December 2008, 12:20 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks David. I tend not to look at Ensiklopedi much. Yeah, things do get mis-labelled, and the labels stick. My feeling towards this is that as long as it is within the culture it probably doesn't matter all that much. We've got kraton pakems, and I guess they need to be the last word, but naming of anything in Jawa is far from standardised. In fact the language itself---Javanese---is regarded by linguists as a non-standardised language, so I'm never going to get into a debate about the "correct" name of anything. As I said:- take your pick.