Tenegre and mystery knife...

tom hyle · 14th April 2005, 03:28 AM

It doesn't seem like it to me, but one wonders, especially in light of Ian's wonderings, if there mightn't have been (for instance) a trade in these to Spain or other points in the empire. Probably the tip of a tang, rather than the nail common on kukuri. I wonder if it might've once had a thin sheet metal guard; there's a space, and it might be original or not, but I've seen a lot of thin guards badly torn and other swords that seem to have lost guards. I like the engraving; it reminds me of some newer Moro work, but remember this is not Moro, nor direct neighbors of the Moros (the tenegre is, more or less, being Visayan, and this seems similar to some Visayan engraving I've seen, too).
BTW, presumeably you mean 5/16" thickness, rather than width?

Ian · 14th April 2005, 03:44 AM

The tenegre looks like an old one from Panay although the pommel is not characteristic. We need Zel to identify where that pommel originates. I know there is a bat form of hilt from Batangas, but this sword looks typical of Panay except for the pommel.

The knife is typical of Luzon. The style of hilt with the pinky notch is seen commonly on Ilocano knives, but the feature can be found elsewhere in Luzon as well. The small octagonal brass ferrule is also consistent with an Ilocano knife. The long clipped blade suggests post-WWII manufacture, although such blades were probably produced earlier too. The hilt has a simplified fist pommel with a full tang construction -- this abstract, minimalist style of fist is not typical of the Katipunan period, and I think post dates it by at least 50 years. Nevertheless a very well made knife, and a nice "gift."

Ian.

tom hyle · 14th April 2005, 04:02 AM

Now this is a matter of interpretation, for sure, but when it's a simply-finished piece in a traditional style, showing multiple marks of process (which Westerners/overculture don't like), and seemingly an effective piece made with every capability for use, I tend to think that's a native piece for the native market. The idea that the simplified fist means it's newer might hold water, as stylization of naturalistic shapes is a longstanding PI pommel carving tradition, such as makes its affect more pronounced over time from the introduction of a form (but are those hand shaped pommels on Moro kampilans?), but I don't think it indicates anything to do with the idea of tourist, or even decorator, or decadent status. BTW, I'm replying to way more than was said by anyone here and now; I know this; I'm talking to the world, about the world; please try to dig it. Excellent gift.

Spunjer · 14th April 2005, 11:51 AM

Quote:

...BTW, presumeably you mean 5/16" thickness, rather than width?

tom, the width i'm referring to on this one is the narrowest part of the blade closest to the handguard. yes it looks rather narrow, but it's compensated by the thickness (1/4'') at this part of the blade.

tom hyle · 14th April 2005, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

tom, the width i'm referring to on this one is the narrowest part of the blade closest to the handguard. yes it looks rather narrow, but it's compensated by the thickness (1/4'') at this part of the blade.

Wow, then; that's particularly talibesque of it; the wider waist on LabanTayo's is probably more typical of tenegre, in my experience. Laban Tayo, what's the gap below the gaurd about on yours?

14th April 2005, 04:02 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Now this is a matter of interpretation, for sure, but when it's a simply-finished piece in a traditional style, showing multiple marks of process (which Westerners/overculture don't like), and seemingly an effective piece made with every capability for use, I tend to think that's a native piece for the native market. The idea that the simplified fist means it's newer might hold water, as stylization of naturalistic shapes is a longstanding PI pommel carving tradition, such as makes its affect more pronounced over time from the introduction of a form (but are those hand shaped pommels on Moro kampilans?), but I don't think it indicates anything to do with the idea of tourist, or even decorator, or decadent status. BTW, I'm replying to way more than was said by anyone here and now; I know this; I'm talking to the world, about the world; please try to dig it. Excellent gift. Last edited by tom hyle; 14th April 2005 at 04:13 AM.

14th April 2005, 03:28 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It doesn't seem like it to me, but one wonders, especially in light of Ian's wonderings, if there mightn't have been (for instance) a trade in these to Spain or other points in the empire. Probably the tip of a tang, rather than the nail common on kukuri. I wonder if it might've once had a thin sheet metal guard; there's a space, and it might be original or not, but I've seen a lot of thin guards badly torn and other swords that seem to have lost guards. I like the engraving; it reminds me of some newer Moro work, but remember this is not Moro, nor direct neighbors of the Moros (the tenegre is, more or less, being Visayan, and this seems similar to some Visayan engraving I've seen, too). BTW, presumeably you mean 5/16" thickness, rather than width?

14th April 2005, 03:44 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	The tenegre looks like an old one from Panay although the pommel is not characteristic. We need Zel to identify where that pommel originates. I know there is a bat form of hilt from Batangas, but this sword looks typical of Panay except for the pommel. The knife is typical of Luzon. The style of hilt with the pinky notch is seen commonly on Ilocano knives, but the feature can be found elsewhere in Luzon as well. The small octagonal brass ferrule is also consistent with an Ilocano knife. The long clipped blade suggests post-WWII manufacture, although such blades were probably produced earlier too. The hilt has a simplified fist pommel with a full tang construction -- this abstract, minimalist style of fist is not typical of the Katipunan period, and I think post dates it by at least 50 years. Nevertheless a very well made knife, and a nice "gift." Ian.