19th century fencing foils

William V. · 1st December 2008, 02:27 PM

good idea using the magnifying glass

I've checked the information I have gathered so far and must admit that I've never came across that kind of marking.
Quite interesting is the fact that the marking is on the "shoulder" of the blade and not on the side, because normally blades were marked there.
Judging by the crown, I would guess the blade was forged in England perhaps first half of the 19th century. The strange grip and the observations made by broadaxe seem to indicate that the weapon was made up at a later point in time using (at least) an older blade (perhaps even the guard).
Do you mind posting pictures of the pommel? This might show if the blade is threaded (which can be another indicator for the forging time).

William

katana · 1st December 2008, 06:53 PM

Hi Broadaxe,
thank you

...yes I did notice one of the labels stating 'paire epees du duel ' but because of the cup hilt, longer handle etc. I did not think it was necessarily applicable to mine. I had wondered whether Duelling rapiers may be partly catergorised by the cup hilt etc ( mentioned above ) ...now I know that it is not necessarily so.

Hi William,
thank you for your time in trying to ID the blade marks...very kind of you

. There is very little regarding fencing during the 18th C / 19th C on the web, in English anyway. I might start 'googling' ('McDougalling'

Hi Jim ) using French and or German ... (I can see Babelfish getting a lot of use soon

)

The tang of the blade appears to be 'peened' over......whether the pommel is threaded and the tang peened to secure it (prevent it turning) is unclear. What is clear is the fact that pommel and tang were 'mated' sometime ago .All the fittings are nice and tight so it is impossible to gain any more information.....without damage that is

The steel in the 'pommel' picture is in fact quite dark with stablised rust, lighting gives the appearance of newer metal.

Kind Regards David
.

fernando · 1st December 2008, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

... I might start 'googling' ('McDougalling'

Hi Jim)...

Hey ... what about paying some royalties for that ?

Fernando

William V. · 1st December 2008, 10:09 PM

everything to keep me occupied from working is welcomed

The pommel looks like the blade is not threaded. This would indicate that the weapon is authentic. So we must get back to Broadaxe' first guess about it being a private ordered weapon. Perhaps the personal whims of a fencer were taken into account while designing the weapon. The POB and the strange grip would indicate something like that.

Regarding the blade... I got something, but I want to verify it first...
this might take some time.

Regarding the sharp point: I wouldn't be too sure that it was in fact used as a duelling weapon. It was not unheard of the sharpening of foils, but the chances are quite slim to get one nowadays which has survived the tides of time. So statistically: it must be sharpened later

William

Chris Evans · 2nd December 2008, 12:54 AM

Hi William.

Quote:

Originally Posted by William V.

Regarding the sharp point: I wouldn't be too sure that it was in fact used as a duelling weapon. It was not unheard of the sharpening of foils, but the chances are quite slim to get one nowadays which has survived the tides of time. So statistically: it must be sharpened later

I think that I have to agree with you. I have an antique fencing sabre that has a very flexible foible (incapable of a serious thrust), yet had a point put on it, and this despite not having an edge - Quite obviously a later modification.

Cheers
Chris

William V. · 2nd December 2008, 08:52 AM

@ Chris:
I'm getting goosebumps thinking of some "professional" sharpening an old weapon...

... kind of raping....
Having two older beauties which were ground down to get a sharp point, my heart is breaking every time I see them

One is a "training weapon" for duels with a Klingenthal blade (around 1895), with the guard of o duelling weapon which used to have a flattened tip.
Nevertheless a wonderful piece, but... not original any more...
The sharping was done quite professional, I just found out when I checked the length of the weapon and compared it with other weapons.

I've attached two pics.

Coming back to the foil: perhaps the grooves on the grip were made to provide a grip for some kind of leather-wire binding

this would keep the wire in it's place.

All the best

William

Chris Evans · 2nd December 2008, 09:15 AM

Hi William,

A very beautiful foil - Thanks for sharing.

Cheers
Chris

1st December 2008, 06:53 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Broadaxe, thank you ...yes I did notice one of the labels stating 'paire epees du duel ' but because of the cup hilt, longer handle etc. I did not think it was necessarily applicable to mine. I had wondered whether Duelling rapiers may be partly catergorised by the cup hilt etc ( mentioned above ) ...now I know that it is not necessarily so. Hi William, thank you for your time in trying to ID the blade marks...very kind of you . There is very little regarding fencing during the 18th C / 19th C on the web, in English anyway. I might start 'googling' ('McDougalling' Hi Jim ) using French and or German ... (I can see Babelfish getting a lot of use soon ) The tang of the blade appears to be 'peened' over......whether the pommel is threaded and the tang peened to secure it (prevent it turning) is unclear. What is clear is the fact that pommel and tang were 'mated' sometime ago .All the fittings are nice and tight so it is impossible to gain any more information.....without damage that is The steel in the 'pommel' picture is in fact quite dark with stablised rust, lighting gives the appearance of newer metal. Kind Regards David . Attached Images

2nd December 2008, 08:52 AM	#6
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	@ Chris: I'm getting goosebumps thinking of some "professional" sharpening an old weapon... ... kind of raping.... Having two older beauties which were ground down to get a sharp point, my heart is breaking every time I see them One is a "training weapon" for duels with a Klingenthal blade (around 1895), with the guard of o duelling weapon which used to have a flattened tip. Nevertheless a wonderful piece, but... not original any more... The sharping was done quite professional, I just found out when I checked the length of the weapon and compared it with other weapons. I've attached two pics. Coming back to the foil: perhaps the grooves on the grip were made to provide a grip for some kind of leather-wire binding this would keep the wire in it's place. All the best William Attached Images

1st December 2008, 02:27 PM	#1
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	good idea using the magnifying glass I've checked the information I have gathered so far and must admit that I've never came across that kind of marking. Quite interesting is the fact that the marking is on the "shoulder" of the blade and not on the side, because normally blades were marked there. Judging by the crown, I would guess the blade was forged in England perhaps first half of the 19th century. The strange grip and the observations made by broadaxe seem to indicate that the weapon was made up at a later point in time using (at least) an older blade (perhaps even the guard). Do you mind posting pictures of the pommel? This might show if the blade is threaded (which can be another indicator for the forging time). William

1st December 2008, 10:09 PM	#4
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	everything to keep me occupied from working is welcomed The pommel looks like the blade is not threaded. This would indicate that the weapon is authentic. So we must get back to Broadaxe' first guess about it being a private ordered weapon. Perhaps the personal whims of a fencer were taken into account while designing the weapon. The POB and the strange grip would indicate something like that. Regarding the blade... I got something, but I want to verify it first... this might take some time. Regarding the sharp point: I wouldn't be too sure that it was in fact used as a duelling weapon. It was not unheard of the sharpening of foils, but the chances are quite slim to get one nowadays which has survived the tides of time. So statistically: it must be sharpened later William

2nd December 2008, 09:15 AM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi William, A very beautiful foil - Thanks for sharing. Cheers Chris