19th century fencing foils

[broadaxe]

Unfortunately the initials C.G. do not ring any bell
The POB is down the blade (comparing to a modern foil), due to the small pommel, and this is also an evidence of an amateure making. I think the broad shoulders were intended to give more weight up the blade - the same way it was on practice longswords of the 15th c. in order to have a safe flexible blade with good balance similar to a fighting sword's. The length is somewhat shorter then the standard. Nevertheless, the work look of high quality.
Steel guard sabers used to have nickel plating and/or coloring, but I don't know if this used to be a must.

[katana]

Hi Broadaxe ,
thanks again for your comments. I always thought the foil was unusual. As I said before, the sharp point is 'old', using a magnifying glass I can see the same patination and slight pitting as the blade. The blade isn't as 'whippy' as you might expect. To give you some comparison if the foil is pushed, point first into the wall (pressing on the pommel) there is very little flex. If the same pressure is applied to the Sabre the blade flexes around 3" ( I used a spring balance weighing scales to push the pommels ..both were 'forced' by 5.5 kgs ...approx. 12lbs).
The foil would have no problem in stabbing (quite deeply ) assuming it missed bone I also found this, perhaps my half hearted thoughts of this being a dueling 'sword' is'nt so wrong


"...The foil was invented in France as a training weapon in the middle of the 18th century in order to practice fast and elegant thrust fencing. Fencers blunted the point by wrapping a foil around the blade or fastening a knob on the point ("blossom", French fleuret). In addition to practising, some fencers took away the protection and used the sharp foil for duels. German students took up that practice and developed the Pariser ("Parisian") thrusting small sword for the Stoßmensur ("thrusting mensur"). After the dress sword was abolished, the Pariser became the only weapon for academic thrust fencing in Germany.

Since fencing on thrust with a sharp point is quite dangerous, many students died from their lungs being pierced (Lungenfuchser) which made breathing difficult or impossible. However, the counter movement had already started in Göttingen in the 1760s. Here the Göttinger Hieber was invented, the predecessor of the modern Korbschläger, a new weapon for cut fencing. In the following years, the Glockenschläger was invented in East German universities for cut fencing as well.

Thrust fencing (using Pariser) and cut fencing using Korbschläger or Glockenschläger) existed in parallel in Germany during the first decades of the 19th century - with local preferences. So thrust fencing was especially popular in Jena, Erlangen, Würzburg and Ingolstadt/Landshut, two towns where the predecessors of Munich university were located. The last thrust Mensur is recorded to have taken place in Würzburg in 1860.

Until the first half of the 19th century all types of academic fencing can be seen as duels, since all fencing with sharp weapons was about honour. No combat with sharp blades took place without a formal insult....."

Regards David

A Pariser..

[William V.]

Hi Katana,

regarding the foil (the saber is not that interesting ):
Like broadaxe I have no idea which forge might use "CG" under a crown but it was not uncommon to use foils as a substitute for duelling epees. In fact this habit was critisised by contemporary sources (e.g. G. Hergsell in his "Duell-Codex").
Nevertheless: If you could try to get a decent picture I would try to find out more on the weapon.

All the best

William

[katana]

Hi William,
thank you very much for your help Using a magnifying glass mounted on a stand I was able to get a much better picture It would be great if you could find any information on the mark.

Kind regards David

[broadaxe]

Hi David/katana. Please forgive my habit of being sometimes over-critisize, I can't help it as research is part of my daily wages.
If you check my photos from the fencing collection you will find at least one pair of sharp duelling foils - especially those with colonial-looking cup hilts, so I don't have problems with the thought that your foil was indeed for duelling.
Great innovative "macro shots" ! As I can see now there is a small recess between the guard and the shoulders, your foil may bee missing a thick stiff leather washer that used to cover the entire 8 figure guard, thus closing the large holes and protecting the hand.

[William V.]

good idea using the magnifying glass
I've checked the information I have gathered so far and must admit that I've never came across that kind of marking.
Quite interesting is the fact that the marking is on the "shoulder" of the blade and not on the side, because normally blades were marked there.
Judging by the crown, I would guess the blade was forged in England perhaps first half of the 19th century. The strange grip and the observations made by broadaxe seem to indicate that the weapon was made up at a later point in time using (at least) an older blade (perhaps even the guard).
Do you mind posting pictures of the pommel? This might show if the blade is threaded (which can be another indicator for the forging time).


William

[katana]

Hi Broadaxe,
thank you ...yes I did notice one of the labels stating 'paire epees du duel ' but because of the cup hilt, longer handle etc. I did not think it was necessarily applicable to mine. I had wondered whether Duelling rapiers may be partly catergorised by the cup hilt etc ( mentioned above ) ...now I know that it is not necessarily so.

Hi William,
thank you for your time in trying to ID the blade marks...very kind of you . There is very little regarding fencing during the 18th C / 19th C on the web, in English anyway. I might start 'googling' ('McDougalling' Hi Jim ) using French and or German ... (I can see Babelfish getting a lot of use soon )

The tang of the blade appears to be 'peened' over......whether the pommel is threaded and the tang peened to secure it (prevent it turning) is unclear. What is clear is the fact that pommel and tang were 'mated' sometime ago .All the fittings are nice and tight so it is impossible to gain any more information.....without damage that is The steel in the 'pommel' picture is in fact quite dark with stablised rust, lighting gives the appearance of newer metal.

Kind Regards David
.

[fernando]

David, you have a PM.
Fernando

[William V.]

Hello @ all.

Unfortunately Mr Anthony Carter died in 2003... so we won't be able to contact him in regard of the marking.
You won't believe how many "clearly marked" weapons are hard to identify.... for example: the above mentioned "PR" marking on the ebay link.

Perhaps someone has a book on belgian sword markings, which could help identifying the "C.G".

The point LOOKS original, but we are not able to verify it... so we must take the most probable solution to this problem

All the best.... and keep looking/searching.

William

[Jim McDougall]

I have just been rereading this thread, and it has developed into an absolutely magnificent example of discussion, presentation, interaction and supported observations that display what true weapons study is all about!!
This kind of joint effort in active research is a prime example of what this forum is meant to promote, where not only the participants learn together, but so do our membership and readers.

As I mentioned in the beginning, there are few resources examining the history and typology of fencing weapons, especially pertaining to makers and suppliers, so it is great to have this thread developing.It is completely fascinating to see the joint participation and ongoing research in examining markings and even when the presumed outcome is not realized, moving on to other possibilities...its like watching forensics examination unfolding, and the unproductive trails stand as benchmarks as well.

Thank you all so much!!! Please keep this going, its exciting to finally be able to learn so much on these fencing weapons, and have this thread develop as a resource for collectors future research.

All very best regards,
Jim