19th century fencing foils

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2008, 05:39 PM

These are absolutely wonderful photos Broadaxe, and its like taking a trip to this completely captivating shop! It is the kind of magical place someone could spend many hours in wandering through, and admiring all the treasures. It reminds me of the antique weapons stores which existed once upon a time (before ebay) and as a youngster, my awe as I wandered through them.
* interesting old Masonic sword there with the skull and crossbones, and in seeing that with my younger eyes, I would have imagined it as a pirate captains trusty sword

Thank you William and Manuel for the input describing these markings and notes on the pieces shown.......I feel another notebook coming on !!! I have often thought of putting together information on fencing weapons, and here we have a great start.

Thank you guys!!!!

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 27th November 2008, 07:05 PM

Thanks a lot for your input, Broadaxe, Manolo and William.
Yes William, i see your point about these foils having been imported from Germany to France, when the late had their own production. Mybe this was due to the ever famous Sollingen prestige?
By the way, despite being almost invisible in the pictures,k the letter S can be discerned inside the central section of the decoration efects; maybe this stands for Solingen?
You are right in that the King's head is rather different than the traditional one from Weyersberg. The Monarch in my example has a moustache and a beard ... quite intriguing. Would there be another German (or not) sword maker with a King's head mark ? There must be an explanation for this.

Concerning the other example i have posted, the only mark is indeed ASOLINGEN. I stress that the grip is precisely the same model, whereas the blade is slightly thinner.
Both these examples were acquired in the same place and at the same moment (in Portugal); so i would bet they surely belonged to the same owner.
Fernando

William V. · 27th November 2008, 09:37 PM

Thanks for the fast pictures Fernando...

Regarding the kings head: maybe there is some kind of forgery into this.
As you said, Weyersberg / Solingen was a well known name too: So why not copy the marking and change it slightly to be sure to get no legal issues?
Is just a wild guess, but with your permission I will ask at Weyersberg directly (they are really nice people) if they ever used this kind of marking (or know of a forger who did.

Regarding the "S": As far as I know, you are right. It stands for Solingen. By the way: Blades intended to be sold to a foreign country are (as far as I know marked with an "A", perhaps for german: "Ausland" which means "Foreign Country"). In addition to this, it is interesting to know that Klingenthal used the same symbol with a "K" (logically for "Klingenthal") in it

@ Jim: Always a pleasure to help

William

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2008, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William V.

Thanks for the fast pictures Fernando...

Regarding the kings head: maybe there is some kind of forgery into this.
As you said, Weyersberg / Solingen was a well known name too: So why not copy the marking and change it slightly to be sure to get no legal issues?
Is just a wild guess, but with your permission I will ask at Weyersberg directly (they are really nice people) if they ever used this kind of marking (or know of a forger who did.

Regarding the "S": As far as I know, you are right. It stands for Solingen. By the way: Blades intended to be sold to a foreign country are (as far as I know marked with an "A", perhaps for german: "Ausland" which means "Foreign Country"). In addition to this, it is interesting to know that Klingenthal used the same symbol with a "K" (logically for "Klingenthal") in it

@ Jim: Always a pleasure to help

William

More excellent information William. I would never had known the 'A' might have meant that. The marketing and commercial acumen of Solingen was in a word, magnificent! This huge export machine overpowered locally made products even in Spain, and probably in many cases, France.

The use of spurious makers marks, popular wording etc. was well aligned for clients as well. The kings head was also used early by Johannes Wundes if my memory serves, and was a venerable mark by these times. It seems blades sometimes had numerous kings heads stamped in groupings, as many as four sometimes. In my thinking, this might have something to do with the numerous stamps used as hallmarks on silverwork, perhaps suggesting quality of that level? Just a thought for multiple stamps on regular blades.

There is so much historical data reflected in the curious markings and stamps we find on weapons, and that is why I hope to continue compiling more in these threads for future research. Using the search feature will reveal the most current data on these subjects.

All the best,
Jim

katana · 29th November 2008, 07:19 PM

Hi,
Like Fernando, I also wanted to post these two fencing foils, ( hope you don't mind) The first I believe to be French mid to late 19th C , blade marked ' C G ' with a crown above ...no idea as to the meaning .The blade tip is sharply pointed

and sinisterly ...judging by the rust pitting this 'point' was made a long time ago. Used for duelling ?? ...... I have no idea ...would anyone know if this was common modification.

The second I think is possibly older.....lots of micro pitting to the guard and blade. The wooden handle has a carved chequered pattern which has bee heavily 'rubbed' from extensive use

No discernable marks but may have lost them due to rust/pitting.

All comments gratefully received....thank you

Regards David

broadaxe · 29th November 2008, 11:36 PM

Katana, your first foil (actually - the only foil, for the second item please follow) is very interesting: straight hilt made of what seems like leather washers, with a very small pommel; wide soulders at the ricasso. I can risk by say it has been made privately or custom ordered.
Please specify blade length, weight and point of balance. Now, duelling foils are not nonexisting but very rare, simply becuase the thin square/rectangular blade is too flexible.

The other item is a sport/olympic saber. Judging from its wooden grip, design of the bowl guard and I could almost swear it is made of steel - please check it (the guard I mean) with a magnet - it is circa 1920-1930's.

katana · 30th November 2008, 12:12 AM

Thank you for the reply Broadaxe

,
the handle is wood (unknown species) with concentric grooves, gives good 'grip' when held.

Blade length to raised shoulder 83 cms
Overall length is 98 cms
handle (including pommel) is 13cm
POB is 12cms from the raised shoulder.....27.5 cms from the pommel 'end'
weight is 310 grammes.

Would you have any idea what 'C.G' with a crown above (the crown is 'crested' with a cross) I have tried to photograph this but it will not show up clearly.

Thank you for the info on the sabre, the bowl is steel ...there is no evidence of any plating or remains of plating on any of the various steel components. Do you think there was originally ? Thank you

Kind Regards David

27th November 2008, 07:05 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot for your input, Broadaxe, Manolo and William. Yes William, i see your point about these foils having been imported from Germany to France, when the late had their own production. Mybe this was due to the ever famous Sollingen prestige? By the way, despite being almost invisible in the pictures,k the letter S can be discerned inside the central section of the decoration efects; maybe this stands for Solingen? You are right in that the King's head is rather different than the traditional one from Weyersberg. The Monarch in my example has a moustache and a beard ... quite intriguing. Would there be another German (or not) sword maker with a King's head mark ? There must be an explanation for this. Concerning the other example i have posted, the only mark is indeed ASOLINGEN. I stress that the grip is precisely the same model, whereas the blade is slightly thinner. Both these examples were acquired in the same place and at the same moment (in Portugal); so i would bet they surely belonged to the same owner. Fernando Attached Images

29th November 2008, 07:19 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi, Like Fernando, I also wanted to post these two fencing foils, ( hope you don't mind) The first I believe to be French mid to late 19th C , blade marked ' C G ' with a crown above ...no idea as to the meaning .The blade tip is sharply pointed and sinisterly ...judging by the rust pitting this 'point' was made a long time ago. Used for duelling ?? ...... I have no idea ...would anyone know if this was common modification. The second I think is possibly older.....lots of micro pitting to the guard and blade. The wooden handle has a carved chequered pattern which has bee heavily 'rubbed' from extensive use No discernable marks but may have lost them due to rust/pitting. All comments gratefully received....thank you Regards David Attached Images

27th November 2008, 05:39 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	These are absolutely wonderful photos Broadaxe, and its like taking a trip to this completely captivating shop! It is the kind of magical place someone could spend many hours in wandering through, and admiring all the treasures. It reminds me of the antique weapons stores which existed once upon a time (before ebay) and as a youngster, my awe as I wandered through them. * interesting old Masonic sword there with the skull and crossbones, and in seeing that with my younger eyes, I would have imagined it as a pirate captains trusty sword Thank you William and Manuel for the input describing these markings and notes on the pieces shown.......I feel another notebook coming on !!! I have often thought of putting together information on fencing weapons, and here we have a great start. Thank you guys!!!! All the best, Jim

27th November 2008, 09:37 PM	#3
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	Thanks for the fast pictures Fernando... Regarding the kings head: maybe there is some kind of forgery into this. As you said, Weyersberg / Solingen was a well known name too: So why not copy the marking and change it slightly to be sure to get no legal issues? Is just a wild guess, but with your permission I will ask at Weyersberg directly (they are really nice people) if they ever used this kind of marking (or know of a forger who did. Regarding the "S": As far as I know, you are right. It stands for Solingen. By the way: Blades intended to be sold to a foreign country are (as far as I know marked with an "A", perhaps for german: "Ausland" which means "Foreign Country"). In addition to this, it is interesting to know that Klingenthal used the same symbol with a "K" (logically for "Klingenthal") in it @ Jim: Always a pleasure to help William

29th November 2008, 11:36 PM	#6
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Katana, your first foil (actually - the only foil, for the second item please follow) is very interesting: straight hilt made of what seems like leather washers, with a very small pommel; wide soulders at the ricasso. I can risk by say it has been made privately or custom ordered. Please specify blade length, weight and point of balance. Now, duelling foils are not nonexisting but very rare, simply becuase the thin square/rectangular blade is too flexible. The other item is a sport/olympic saber. Judging from its wooden grip, design of the bowl guard and I could almost swear it is made of steel - please check it (the guard I mean) with a magnet - it is circa 1920-1930's.

30th November 2008, 12:12 AM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you for the reply Broadaxe , the handle is wood (unknown species) with concentric grooves, gives good 'grip' when held. Blade length to raised shoulder 83 cms Overall length is 98 cms handle (including pommel) is 13cm POB is 12cms from the raised shoulder.....27.5 cms from the pommel 'end' weight is 310 grammes. Would you have any idea what 'C.G' with a crown above (the crown is 'crested' with a cross) I have tried to photograph this but it will not show up clearly. Thank you for the info on the sabre, the bowl is steel ...there is no evidence of any plating or remains of plating on any of the various steel components. Do you think there was originally ? Thank you Kind Regards David