My Birthday Present: Knife for ID Please

Gavin Nugent · 27th November 2008, 12:45 PM

I found this painting tonight, Decapition of the saint Katharina, Bernaert Van Orley (1488–1541).
Although this piece is not as old as the picture, have a look at the guy in the bottom right corner of the painting and tell me if you think it is the same style of side arm? The hilt looks the same length and shape and the curve and fittings are the same too...maybe origins of this artist might point more to orgins of this knife?

Gav

PS, this shows how it was mounted too

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2008, 04:24 AM

Incredible find Gav!!! You definitely have a fantastic eye!
The weapon worn by that figure does seem to have size and curvature similar, though the hilt of course is gold metal but of different profile.

I finally discovered more on the background of this painting, which is a Flemish religiously themed subject based on the martyrdom of St. Catherine.
This refers to St. Catherine of Alexandria, who in the 4th century was condemned by Roman Emperor Maxentius to death by use of the 'breaking wheel' (note the wheels in the background). It was said that when she touched the wheel it broke, so she was beheaded. There seem to be many variations of this legend, and revived interest in her martyrdom began in the 15th century when it was said that she had spoken to Joan of Arc.

The costumes and of course weapons in this painting clearly display the use of artistic license so typical in these times with these subjects, portraying the figures in fashions of the time the painting was done (Van Orley was Flemish , b.1488-d. 1541) . It would appear that the weapons shown, including the unusually wide and short weapon worn by the figure, may correspond to weapons from the late 15th to early 16th century, despite the 4th century event being depicted.

The weapon we are discussing in this thread, obviously not of this age, may well be a neoclassic representation of an earlier form hunting weapon, and the talismanic and military markings reflecting 18th century popularity of these styles.

Now to look for these curious hunting weapon forms from Europe from end of 15th century forward.

All the best,
Jim

27th November 2008, 12:45 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Found this tonight I found this painting tonight, Decapition of the saint Katharina, Bernaert Van Orley (1488–1541). Although this piece is not as old as the picture, have a look at the guy in the bottom right corner of the painting and tell me if you think it is the same style of side arm? The hilt looks the same length and shape and the curve and fittings are the same too...maybe origins of this artist might point more to orgins of this knife? Gav PS, this shows how it was mounted too Attached Images

21st December 2008, 04:24 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Incredible find Gav!!! You definitely have a fantastic eye! The weapon worn by that figure does seem to have size and curvature similar, though the hilt of course is gold metal but of different profile. I finally discovered more on the background of this painting, which is a Flemish religiously themed subject based on the martyrdom of St. Catherine. This refers to St. Catherine of Alexandria, who in the 4th century was condemned by Roman Emperor Maxentius to death by use of the 'breaking wheel' (note the wheels in the background). It was said that when she touched the wheel it broke, so she was beheaded. There seem to be many variations of this legend, and revived interest in her martyrdom began in the 15th century when it was said that she had spoken to Joan of Arc. The costumes and of course weapons in this painting clearly display the use of artistic license so typical in these times with these subjects, portraying the figures in fashions of the time the painting was done (Van Orley was Flemish , b.1488-d. 1541) . It would appear that the weapons shown, including the unusually wide and short weapon worn by the figure, may correspond to weapons from the late 15th to early 16th century, despite the 4th century event being depicted. The weapon we are discussing in this thread, obviously not of this age, may well be a neoclassic representation of an earlier form hunting weapon, and the talismanic and military markings reflecting 18th century popularity of these styles. Now to look for these curious hunting weapon forms from Europe from end of 15th century forward. All the best, Jim