A cup hilted sword rapier for coments

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

Great links, thank you.

I wonder what distinguished those of the German school from other cup hilted rapiers - I wan under the impression that the Germans used the edge more, but these samples look very thrust oriented.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi Folks,

Opps! Had a senior moment.

German hilts had often a thumb ring to augment control. The Mediterranean grip consisted of wraping the firest and second fingers around the ricasso under the quillon. The Germans liked to hook the thumb into a ring/loop on the LHS of the quillons on a RHS hilt.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

German hilts had often a thumb ring to augment control. The Mediterranean grip consisted of wraping the firest and second fingers around the ricasso under the quillon. The Germans liked to hook the thumb into a ring/loop on the LHS of the quillons on a RHS hilt.

Furthermore, according to Germán Dueñaz Beraiz, in his article "Estudio Tipológico de las Espadas Españolas" (A Typologycal Study on the Spansih Swords), published on Gladius, Vol. XXIV - 2004, some authors distinguish the spanish hilts and guards of the rapiers made on Spain, by the following elements supposedly not found in other countries of origin:

* A shorter hilt, derved of the fact that the spanish grip used only three fingers to grasp the hilt, as the others went over the quillons.

* The spanish cup guards were less deep and with less diameter

* The pommels were more flattened and smaller.

* On the inner side and centered in the cup, the presence of an element called "dust keeper", a small plaque which reinforces structurally the cup and the union of this elements with the pas d´ane, the circular rings over the recasso.

* The presence of a point breaker on the cup.

Altough Dueñas Beraiz does not deny or accept this specific dictinctions, he says that is difficult to determine the place of origin of a swords only based on the hilt and guard elements, as the styles were a subject of constant intercouse among different countries.

There is another important element to be taken on account. Many rapier blades made on Spain were actually mounted in other countries, so there is no relation among blade and mounts (hilts and guards). So, those rapiers are not representative of the spanish ones, no matter they carry on the blade a stamp from a Toledo swordmaker.

Another intersting mention, this time to dissagraviate Fernando, is that there are references to a production of bilobate or shell guards and the mounting of hilts and guards in Portugal, though I still do not find references to rapiers or another kind of swords made entirely there in this period.

To the benefit of the statements of Jim, the german states were also under the dominion of Spain and in it´s area of influence on the first half of the 16th Century. I don´t know if this fact is related with the production of cup hilted rapiers there, but this point must be researched. Apparently, the production of swords was the result of an international cooperation in Europe during certain period of time. First, many sword blades were made on Toledo, and mounted on Italy, the german states (Germany did not exist as a single state until 1871) and the nordic countries. Latter, as a result of the more industrialized production of Solingen, their more cheap (but not necessarily better) blades, were used to be mounted in other countries.

I do not know of a comparative study of the blades from Toledo and Solingen, in relation with their pretended uses, as absolute parameters as hardness, thoughtness, impact resistance, etc., cannot be valid, and they instead must be related with the specific use of a specific type of sword. But it seems that I´m going out of thread subject.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

* A shorter hilt, derved of the fact that the spanish grip used only three fingers to grasp the hilt, as the others went over the quillons.

* The spanish cup guards were less deep and with less diameter

* The pommels were more flattened and smaller.

* On the inner side and centered in the cup, the presence of an element called "dust keeper", a small plaque which reinforces structurally the cup and the union of this elements with the pas d´ane, the circular rings over the recasso

Altough Dueñas Beraiz does not deny or accept this specific dictinctions, he says that is difficult to determine the place of origin of a swords only based on the hilt and guard elements, as the styles were a subject of constant intercouse among different countries.

Many thanks for all those valid observations.

That work of Beraiz is very good, as he makes quite a number of points not encountered elsewhere. Someone ought to translate it into English.

On the matter of smaller hilts, Castle tells us that towards the end of the 16th century hilts were short so as to rest against the palm of the hand. My take on this, is that to achieve such a grip, a small pommel was a requisite - And I often speculated on how this influenced the balance of the long rapier, shifting the POB towards the point. It would be nice if curators could be persuaded to compile the important attributes of swords in their collections as then we could gain a much better understanding as to their inherent traits and how they were used.

There is another important element to be taken on account. Many rapier blades made on Spain were actually mounted in other countries, so there is no relation among blade and mounts (hilts and guards). So, those rapiers are not representative of the Spanish ones, no matter they carry on the blade a stamp from a Toledo swordmaker.

Yes, sword production was then a truly a multi-regional industry and to make things worse, many blades were at a later date retro-fiited with hilts that differed from the originals. And to add more confusion, makers names and origins were widely falsified.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Yes Chris. Specially the civil swords, as the rapier, being part of the indumentary, and it´s hilt the most visible portion, it was rehilted according to the changing tastes and fashions, among other reasons.
Regards

Gonzalo

[fernando]

Definitely, i lack the necessary profile to interpreter all opinions gathered, as well as the written material i can get hold of, to discern the differences between Spanish and Portuguese swords, in this case cup hilted ones, namely the (my) example posted here in the first place … as sell as others.
That is to admit that, to my view, specimens shown here and there, in confrontation to what i read about these swords typology, make the exception larger than the rule.
Again i say that it must be my limited focusing capacity, for lack of experience and or my inability to read the data provided with the necessary skill.
In addition to the comments posted by Marc, Chris, Gonzalo, Jim and Manolo, let me here transcribe the (translated) comments from the Spanish seller ( which i ‘promised’ to post but never did ), as well as the comments of Juan J. Perez, a well known connoisseur.

(From Lluc Sala)
Concerning your cuphilt sword, the details that make think it is a possible Spanish production, are the cup shallow profile and the short length of the grip (between the two ferrules). Such are details that usually occur in Spanish pieces. Nevertheless, old weapons are not an exact science and it is of common knowledge that between Spain and Portugal there were several similarities of styles and construction, some of them being almost identical.

(From Juan J. Perez)
Yes, there are differences. Some of them are subtle, while others aren't. For swords dating from 1670 upward, I think the most relevant (and evident!) difference is that Portuguese hilts usually lack their arms. I mean, the cup is soldered right to the quillons, there being no additional arms emerging from the quillon block, in order to secure the cup. This is specially true regarding military swords.
However, this particular feature may also be found on Spanish colonial pieces, but in my opinion it has a Portuguese origin.
The seller of this sword thought that the hilt may be Spanish, being the blade obviously Portuguese or made for the Portuguese market. It may well be.

I must say i am not that much short sighted (not too much sex ) as not to see a few remarks consistent in the typology quoted by the various sources. However and as i said, i seem to find as many exceptions around … be it cup bowl depth and diameter, quillons fixation, grip length, pommel shape and so on.
Indeed the “Peninsular” connotation suits better this Portuguese/Spanish (or Spanish/Portuguese) duality, on what touches hilt typology.
Blades appear to be a thematic with a different approach. German (and Italian) production was significantly poured into the Peninsula, to fulfil the immense demand, certainly aggravated by massive detachment to the colonies. Also here and with the due difference in either (Peninsular) country dimensions, also Portugal consumed some of this production; Solingen blades are found all over, be them real or fake … a phenomenon similar to Toledo specimens. I also realize that when a cup hilt sword has a German shape, including hilt, it would quicker be an example to be used in the Peninsula, than to be used in its country of origin. Maybe this is the reason why those few are found in the Madrid Museum, for one.

I will post here two interesting examples of cup hilt variations; one with a(often quoted) short grip, those where you could only fit three fingers; and another with a (also mentioned) dust keeper (guarda polvo). The first one, from the XVII century, with a short 83 cms waving blade and wide quillons, is quoted as civilian. The author considers that the legend IN SOLINGEN in the blade, could well be an original as well as an imitation. No origin (Spain/Portugal) precised. The second one, besides also placed in the XVII century, is stressed by the author as being from after 1640, and so tagged as Portuguese, once the legend in the blade reads VIVA PORTUGAL, an expression contextually used after or in course of liberation from the Spanish domination. In the perspective of this author, this is the (only ?) symptom that differentiates (Peninsular) cup hilt swords from being Spanish or Portuguese.
By this point of view, i would conclude that my specific sword is Portuguese; i don’t see a Portuguese client go order from a Spanish smith a sword with such a controversial nationalist motto. But that is only a theory … or not even so. On the other hand, we must not forget that this sword was at sale in Spain … mind you, after three hundred years; a theory not better than the first one.

Interesting also to note is that the first specimen has its quillons welded to the cup bowl, whereas the second one uses the screw method … but, important thing, the author quotes this variation as less common.

Enough of this nonsense talk.

Fernando

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[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

I tend to agree with Lluc, identifying these swords is not an exact science, not even remotely so, and the best we can do is to go with the most plausible account on the strength of what we know - And am inclined to think that his guess is as good as anybody's.

Cheers
Chris