19th century fencing foils

kronckew · 24th November 2008, 10:50 AM

yes, broadaxe, please post more. i have a nostalgic fondness for the epee as i was trained in it and fenced on my varsity college team 40 odd years or so ago. (we had a very good hungarian coach, an ex- hungarian cavalry officer).

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s.../Yearbook2.jpg

broadaxe · 26th November 2008, 10:30 AM

Hungarians are very famous as fencers, espacialy with epee.
Here are some pics, feel free to post questions, I hope I can answer all

Chris Evans · 26th November 2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

Hungarians are very famous as fencers, espacialy with epee.
Here are some pics, feel free to post questions, I hope I can answer all

Hi,

Absolutely fantastic - Thank you for sharing them.

Some years ago, I sa a similar collection (in variety and scope) in Buenos Aires. Walked out with a very light wallet and a couple of swords.

Cheers
Chris

fernando · 26th November 2008, 07:59 PM

Beautyful pieces you show there, Broadaxe. Do they belong to you ? What a fascinating colection

.
If you people don't mind, let me take the opportunity to have in this thread some authorities in this area, and ask for coments on one "and half" foils i have; unfortunately one of them has a blade broken by its half length.
The entire one has a 87 cms blade and still keeps a very thin brass wire wraped around the leather grip. I never knew what the term BEDEL means.
All the marks on the blade are well visible. There is also the figure 5 engraved; i wonder if that represents the size of the sword.
The other example has a completely identical grip, only missing the wraping wire. The blade has only one mark, ASOLINGEN; i wonder what the letter "A" added to the word Solingen means.
Coments on these pieces would be much welcome, namely on their provenance and possible age.
Fernando

broadaxe · 26th November 2008, 10:13 PM

Hi Fernando. All the photos were taken at the private museum of Maitre Jaque Castanet in France. For me this is just a side field of interest. The number 5 stands for length of the blade, which is the adult standard. For youth it used to be #3, and there was a rare longer blade, #7. I don't remember the exact measures. The style of your hilt can be dated to the mid-19th century; please check if the fittings are nickel-plated steel thus indicate later age.

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2008, 11:15 PM

WOW! Broadaxe.....now THATS what I'm talkin' about!!!
Thank you so much for posting these, and its wonderful to see such a grouping of fencing swords and masks.

Pretty much speechless at this point

I'll think of something to say, I think!

All the very best,
Jim

celtan · 27th November 2008, 10:55 AM

In Spain, a bedel is someone in charge of a building, and sometimes the term is used for minor administrative hotel employees.

In this case though, I believe its the name of the store that sold the epees. Aciers Bedel, or Steels Bedel.

The A before Solingen could likewise refer to Aceros or Acieres Solingen.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by
The entire one has a 87 cms blade and still keeps a very thin brass wire wraped around the leather grip. I never knew what the term BEDEL means.
All the marks on the blade are well visible. There is also the figure [b

5 [/b] engraved; i wonder if that represents the size of the sword.
The other example has a completely identical grip, only missing the wraping wire. The blade has only one mark, ASOLINGEN; i wonder what the letter "A" added to the word Solingen means.

William V. · 27th November 2008, 02:40 PM

Hello @ all

Sorry for not posting earlier... my job got the better of me

@Fernando:
The 5 indicates indeed the lenght of the weapon (normally "5" was 88 cm), the blade was forged in Solingen most probably by the Weyersberg company (before 1883). I suppose that the "Bedel" is the seller of the weapon and the word (as already said) "acier" meaning "steel", is a kind of proofmark that the metal is truly steel. The fact that "acier" is french for "steel" implies that Bedel is a french distributor (by chance I stumbled across 2 other weapons located in France with the same marking, which speaks for this hypothesis).
The "VjB" is probably the full name of the seller, the last letter standing for "Bedel".
The only thing irritating me is the strange king's head, he looks quite different to the original:
http://www.wkc-solingen.de/ueberuns/index.html

Do you mind posting a high-resolution picture of the head only?
Another interesting point is the question why a french distributor should sell german blades? They had Klingenthal and Chatterault around the corner

Regarding the other weapon:
Are there any other markings on the blade except the "ASolingen"?
The way I see it the "A" is the french for "at" Solingen. Indicating that the blade was forged at Solingen. This would show that the blade was for the foreign market.

@Broadaxe:

WOW

I knew the page of Mr Castanet but am truly amazed by the material he has there. Perhaps I should plan a short trip to Paris

Really nice pictures.

So far and all the best

William

broadaxe · 27th November 2008, 03:46 PM

The place of Mr. Castanet is not actualy in Paris but is very easy to get, about 20 minutes to the south riding the RER train. One should call for appointment.
As there is interest here are some more pics.

24th November 2008, 10:50 AM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	yes, broadaxe, please post more. i have a nostalgic fondness for the epee as i was trained in it and fenced on my varsity college team 40 odd years or so ago. (we had a very good hungarian coach, an ex- hungarian cavalry officer). http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s.../Yearbook2.jpg Last edited by kronckew; 24th November 2008 at 11:01 AM.

26th November 2008, 10:30 AM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Hungarians are very famous as fencers, espacialy with epee. Here are some pics, feel free to post questions, I hope I can answer all Attached Images

26th November 2008, 07:59 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Beautyful pieces you show there, Broadaxe. Do they belong to you ? What a fascinating colection . If you people don't mind, let me take the opportunity to have in this thread some authorities in this area, and ask for coments on one "and half" foils i have; unfortunately one of them has a blade broken by its half length. The entire one has a 87 cms blade and still keeps a very thin brass wire wraped around the leather grip. I never knew what the term BEDEL means. All the marks on the blade are well visible. There is also the figure 5 engraved; i wonder if that represents the size of the sword. The other example has a completely identical grip, only missing the wraping wire. The blade has only one mark, ASOLINGEN; i wonder what the letter "A" added to the word Solingen means. Coments on these pieces would be much welcome, namely on their provenance and possible age. Fernando Attached Images

27th November 2008, 03:46 PM	#9
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	The place of Mr. Castanet is not actualy in Paris but is very easy to get, about 20 minutes to the south riding the RER train. One should call for appointment. As there is interest here are some more pics. Attached Images

26th November 2008, 10:13 PM	#5
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Hi Fernando. All the photos were taken at the private museum of Maitre Jaque Castanet in France. For me this is just a side field of interest. The number 5 stands for length of the blade, which is the adult standard. For youth it used to be #3, and there was a rare longer blade, #7. I don't remember the exact measures. The style of your hilt can be dated to the mid-19th century; please check if the fittings are nickel-plated steel thus indicate later age.

26th November 2008, 11:15 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	WOW! Broadaxe.....now THATS what I'm talkin' about!!! Thank you so much for posting these, and its wonderful to see such a grouping of fencing swords and masks. Pretty much speechless at this point I'll think of something to say, I think! All the very best, Jim

27th November 2008, 02:40 PM	#8
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	Hello @ all Sorry for not posting earlier... my job got the better of me @Fernando: The 5 indicates indeed the lenght of the weapon (normally "5" was 88 cm), the blade was forged in Solingen most probably by the Weyersberg company (before 1883). I suppose that the "Bedel" is the seller of the weapon and the word (as already said) "acier" meaning "steel", is a kind of proofmark that the metal is truly steel. The fact that "acier" is french for "steel" implies that Bedel is a french distributor (by chance I stumbled across 2 other weapons located in France with the same marking, which speaks for this hypothesis). The "VjB" is probably the full name of the seller, the last letter standing for "Bedel". The only thing irritating me is the strange king's head, he looks quite different to the original: http://www.wkc-solingen.de/ueberuns/index.html Do you mind posting a high-resolution picture of the head only? Another interesting point is the question why a french distributor should sell german blades? They had Klingenthal and Chatterault around the corner Regarding the other weapon: Are there any other markings on the blade except the "ASolingen"? The way I see it the "A" is the french for "at" Solingen. Indicating that the blade was forged at Solingen. This would show that the blade was for the foreign market. @Broadaxe: WOW I knew the page of Mr Castanet but am truly amazed by the material he has there. Perhaps I should plan a short trip to Paris Really nice pictures. So far and all the best William