A cup hilted sword rapier for coments

[Chris Evans]

Hi Jim,

Allow me to say that it is always a pleasure to read your posts, which reflect great scholarship and a gentlemanly approach.

I envy your good fortune in having corresponded with the late Mr Norman. IMHO, his wonderful work and that of Castle pretty much covers the evolution of the rapier to the small sword. I only wished that Castle would have dealt with some of the developments of the 19th century such as that of the Italian fencing sabre and the French dueling epee.

I feel that neither of these works will be improved upon in the foreseeable future, as they both covered all that could be within reason and little else will go beyond being mere commentaries, footnotes and minor corrections to these two foundational works.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Just for the record. I believe the rapier was some sort of "universal" weapon in west Europe, though I never checked how many countries have rapiers with cup hilts and crossguards. Unless proved the contrary, there are rapiers with cup hilts from the german states, not made for the external market. Some, very beautiful. Please see this examples:

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7408

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7413

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7395

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7255

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7248

among others. They belong to what among the spanish scholars is known as the "German School". It dreserves a mention that the germans were very affectionated to duelling in their civil life, maybe for centuries. An interestig comparative study could be made of the hilts and guards. The cup hilt has obvious advantages in the rapier style of fencing, and there were rapiers all over west Europe. Even probably the development of a more refinated style of fencing in the late 18th Century, can explain the bigger cup hilts seen on some rapiers of the period. This is an hypothesis expressed by some spanish erudites and swordsman as Juan José Pérez.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

Great links, thank you.

I wonder what distinguished those of the German school from other cup hilted rapiers - I wan under the impression that the Germans used the edge more, but these samples look very thrust oriented.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi Folks,

Opps! Had a senior moment.

German hilts had often a thumb ring to augment control. The Mediterranean grip consisted of wraping the firest and second fingers around the ricasso under the quillon. The Germans liked to hook the thumb into a ring/loop on the LHS of the quillons on a RHS hilt.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

German hilts had often a thumb ring to augment control. The Mediterranean grip consisted of wraping the firest and second fingers around the ricasso under the quillon. The Germans liked to hook the thumb into a ring/loop on the LHS of the quillons on a RHS hilt.

Furthermore, according to Germán Dueñaz Beraiz, in his article "Estudio Tipológico de las Espadas Españolas" (A Typologycal Study on the Spansih Swords), published on Gladius, Vol. XXIV - 2004, some authors distinguish the spanish hilts and guards of the rapiers made on Spain, by the following elements supposedly not found in other countries of origin:

* A shorter hilt, derved of the fact that the spanish grip used only three fingers to grasp the hilt, as the others went over the quillons.

* The spanish cup guards were less deep and with less diameter

* The pommels were more flattened and smaller.

* On the inner side and centered in the cup, the presence of an element called "dust keeper", a small plaque which reinforces structurally the cup and the union of this elements with the pas d´ane, the circular rings over the recasso.

* The presence of a point breaker on the cup.

Altough Dueñas Beraiz does not deny or accept this specific dictinctions, he says that is difficult to determine the place of origin of a swords only based on the hilt and guard elements, as the styles were a subject of constant intercouse among different countries.

There is another important element to be taken on account. Many rapier blades made on Spain were actually mounted in other countries, so there is no relation among blade and mounts (hilts and guards). So, those rapiers are not representative of the spanish ones, no matter they carry on the blade a stamp from a Toledo swordmaker.

Another intersting mention, this time to dissagraviate Fernando, is that there are references to a production of bilobate or shell guards and the mounting of hilts and guards in Portugal, though I still do not find references to rapiers or another kind of swords made entirely there in this period.

To the benefit of the statements of Jim, the german states were also under the dominion of Spain and in it´s area of influence on the first half of the 16th Century. I don´t know if this fact is related with the production of cup hilted rapiers there, but this point must be researched. Apparently, the production of swords was the result of an international cooperation in Europe during certain period of time. First, many sword blades were made on Toledo, and mounted on Italy, the german states (Germany did not exist as a single state until 1871) and the nordic countries. Latter, as a result of the more industrialized production of Solingen, their more cheap (but not necessarily better) blades, were used to be mounted in other countries.

I do not know of a comparative study of the blades from Toledo and Solingen, in relation with their pretended uses, as absolute parameters as hardness, thoughtness, impact resistance, etc., cannot be valid, and they instead must be related with the specific use of a specific type of sword. But it seems that I´m going out of thread subject.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

* A shorter hilt, derved of the fact that the spanish grip used only three fingers to grasp the hilt, as the others went over the quillons.

* The spanish cup guards were less deep and with less diameter

* The pommels were more flattened and smaller.

* On the inner side and centered in the cup, the presence of an element called "dust keeper", a small plaque which reinforces structurally the cup and the union of this elements with the pas d´ane, the circular rings over the recasso

Altough Dueñas Beraiz does not deny or accept this specific dictinctions, he says that is difficult to determine the place of origin of a swords only based on the hilt and guard elements, as the styles were a subject of constant intercouse among different countries.

Many thanks for all those valid observations.

That work of Beraiz is very good, as he makes quite a number of points not encountered elsewhere. Someone ought to translate it into English.

On the matter of smaller hilts, Castle tells us that towards the end of the 16th century hilts were short so as to rest against the palm of the hand. My take on this, is that to achieve such a grip, a small pommel was a requisite - And I often speculated on how this influenced the balance of the long rapier, shifting the POB towards the point. It would be nice if curators could be persuaded to compile the important attributes of swords in their collections as then we could gain a much better understanding as to their inherent traits and how they were used.

There is another important element to be taken on account. Many rapier blades made on Spain were actually mounted in other countries, so there is no relation among blade and mounts (hilts and guards). So, those rapiers are not representative of the Spanish ones, no matter they carry on the blade a stamp from a Toledo swordmaker.

Yes, sword production was then a truly a multi-regional industry and to make things worse, many blades were at a later date retro-fiited with hilts that differed from the originals. And to add more confusion, makers names and origins were widely falsified.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Yes Chris. Specially the civil swords, as the rapier, being part of the indumentary, and it´s hilt the most visible portion, it was rehilted according to the changing tastes and fashions, among other reasons.
Regards

Gonzalo