19th century fencing foils

Jim McDougall · 23rd November 2008, 05:18 AM

While not strictly concerning fencing foils, discovered an interesting note from early classical antiquity with most distant relation to fencing, from about the 12th century BC,

"...the long rapier, which was the commonest type in the shaft graves, was not Mycenaean in origin, but had been developed by the Minoan bronzesmiths of Crete".
"...it is a huge weapon,-many of the extant examples exceed three feet in length, without the elaborate hilt attachments with which they were originally fitted- but this in itself reduced its practical value. A heavy blow on the edge of the sword, if it did not shatter the slender blade was likely to snap the even thinner tang, so that hilt and blade parted company. In many cases the swords have been found with thier tangs broken in this way, probably during use. Strictly these are thrusting weapons and thier designed use must have been largely limited to the fencing duels, between single champions, we see represented on some signet rings of the period".
"Arms and Armour of the Greeks"
A.M.Snodgrass, 1967 , pp.15-16
Just thought it was interesting while we discuss the history of fencing.

All best regards,
Jim

broadaxe · 23rd November 2008, 05:04 PM

Jim, the citation is very interesting indeed.
Back the original subject, I'm aware of two individuals who are being regarded as a "living source" of classical and olympic fencing. Interestingly both were fencing instructors (one of them still is) and both hold private fencing museums:
Maitre (maestro) Rudy Van Oeveren http://musee.escrime.free.fr/
Maitre Jaque Castanet http://www.antiquaire-escrime.com.fr/index.htm
I have met with Mr. Castanet in person and visited his museum - it is most fascinating, and one can touch (and buy...) almost everything. Note the antique-looking swept-hilt foil on the opening page, it is possibly the oldest known survivng foil, circa 1670. For me, the section of sharp epees was the most interesting part, he has pairs of varied hilts including cup-hilt style that were used in Spanish colonies. If there is interest I can upload here some pics I took there.

Jim McDougall · 24th November 2008, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

Jim, the citation is very interesting indeed.
Back the original subject, I'm aware of two individuals who are being regarded as a "living source" of classical and olympic fencing. Interestingly both were fencing instructors (one of them still is) and both hold private fencing museums:
Maitre (maestro) Rudy Van Oeveren http://musee.escrime.free.fr/
Maitre Jaque Castanet http://www.antiquaire-escrime.com.fr/index.htm
I have met with Mr. Castanet in person and visited his museum - it is most fascinating, and one can touch (and buy...) almost everything. Note the antique-looking swept-hilt foil on the opening page, it is possibly the oldest known survivng foil, circa 1670. For me, the section of sharp epees was the most interesting part, he has pairs of varied hilts including cup-hilt style that were used in Spanish colonies. If there is interest I can upload here some pics I took there.

Outstanding Broadaxe!!! There is indeed interest, so please post

Thank you for sharing these links!!

All the best,
Jim

kronckew · 24th November 2008, 10:50 AM

yes, broadaxe, please post more. i have a nostalgic fondness for the epee as i was trained in it and fenced on my varsity college team 40 odd years or so ago. (we had a very good hungarian coach, an ex- hungarian cavalry officer).

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s.../Yearbook2.jpg

broadaxe · 26th November 2008, 10:30 AM

Hungarians are very famous as fencers, espacialy with epee.
Here are some pics, feel free to post questions, I hope I can answer all

Chris Evans · 26th November 2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

Hungarians are very famous as fencers, espacialy with epee.
Here are some pics, feel free to post questions, I hope I can answer all

Hi,

Absolutely fantastic - Thank you for sharing them.

Some years ago, I sa a similar collection (in variety and scope) in Buenos Aires. Walked out with a very light wallet and a couple of swords.

Cheers
Chris

fernando · 26th November 2008, 07:59 PM

Beautyful pieces you show there, Broadaxe. Do they belong to you ? What a fascinating colection

.
If you people don't mind, let me take the opportunity to have in this thread some authorities in this area, and ask for coments on one "and half" foils i have; unfortunately one of them has a blade broken by its half length.
The entire one has a 87 cms blade and still keeps a very thin brass wire wraped around the leather grip. I never knew what the term BEDEL means.
All the marks on the blade are well visible. There is also the figure 5 engraved; i wonder if that represents the size of the sword.
The other example has a completely identical grip, only missing the wraping wire. The blade has only one mark, ASOLINGEN; i wonder what the letter "A" added to the word Solingen means.
Coments on these pieces would be much welcome, namely on their provenance and possible age.
Fernando

24th November 2008, 10:50 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	yes, broadaxe, please post more. i have a nostalgic fondness for the epee as i was trained in it and fenced on my varsity college team 40 odd years or so ago. (we had a very good hungarian coach, an ex- hungarian cavalry officer). http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s.../Yearbook2.jpg Last edited by kronckew; 24th November 2008 at 11:01 AM.

26th November 2008, 10:30 AM	#5
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Hungarians are very famous as fencers, espacialy with epee. Here are some pics, feel free to post questions, I hope I can answer all Attached Images

26th November 2008, 07:59 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Beautyful pieces you show there, Broadaxe. Do they belong to you ? What a fascinating colection . If you people don't mind, let me take the opportunity to have in this thread some authorities in this area, and ask for coments on one "and half" foils i have; unfortunately one of them has a blade broken by its half length. The entire one has a 87 cms blade and still keeps a very thin brass wire wraped around the leather grip. I never knew what the term BEDEL means. All the marks on the blade are well visible. There is also the figure 5 engraved; i wonder if that represents the size of the sword. The other example has a completely identical grip, only missing the wraping wire. The blade has only one mark, ASOLINGEN; i wonder what the letter "A" added to the word Solingen means. Coments on these pieces would be much welcome, namely on their provenance and possible age. Fernando Attached Images

23rd November 2008, 05:18 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	While not strictly concerning fencing foils, discovered an interesting note from early classical antiquity with most distant relation to fencing, from about the 12th century BC, "...the long rapier, which was the commonest type in the shaft graves, was not Mycenaean in origin, but had been developed by the Minoan bronzesmiths of Crete". "...it is a huge weapon,-many of the extant examples exceed three feet in length, without the elaborate hilt attachments with which they were originally fitted- but this in itself reduced its practical value. A heavy blow on the edge of the sword, if it did not shatter the slender blade was likely to snap the even thinner tang, so that hilt and blade parted company. In many cases the swords have been found with thier tangs broken in this way, probably during use. Strictly these are thrusting weapons and thier designed use must have been largely limited to the fencing duels, between single champions, we see represented on some signet rings of the period". "Arms and Armour of the Greeks" A.M.Snodgrass, 1967 , pp.15-16 Just thought it was interesting while we discuss the history of fencing. All best regards, Jim

23rd November 2008, 05:04 PM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Jim, the citation is very interesting indeed. Back the original subject, I'm aware of two individuals who are being regarded as a "living source" of classical and olympic fencing. Interestingly both were fencing instructors (one of them still is) and both hold private fencing museums: Maitre (maestro) Rudy Van Oeveren http://musee.escrime.free.fr/ Maitre Jaque Castanet http://www.antiquaire-escrime.com.fr/index.htm I have met with Mr. Castanet in person and visited his museum - it is most fascinating, and one can touch (and buy...) almost everything. Note the antique-looking swept-hilt foil on the opening page, it is possibly the oldest known survivng foil, circa 1670. For me, the section of sharp epees was the most interesting part, he has pairs of varied hilts including cup-hilt style that were used in Spanish colonies. If there is interest I can upload here some pics I took there.