spanish colonial lances

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by aiontay

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, Jim, I'm Kiowa and Chickasaw. The Kiowas certainly covered some distances back in the old days; Zone-tay, the original Aiontay's wife who we descend from, was born on the headwaters of the Arkansas on a return trip from visiting the Crows. Of course, the Spanish also did a bit of travelling themselves.

I should also point out that the Indians, or at least the Kiowas, didn't throw their lances. Also, while tomahawks were popular, they were more prestige items rather than actual weapons. My grandmother talked about the Kiowas using war clubs, but not tomahawks. The Kiowa ledger art I've seen shows spears and sabers used in combat, but no tomahawks.

As for strange creatures, Mooney's collection of Kiowa shield designs shows one shield depicting an elephant! I can't read the written description since the scanned image doesn't show the writing very well, but it is clearly an elephant.

I need to go back and comment on some of the threads regarding Kachin swords (nhtu) as well since I've spent time among the Kachins and actually have one that was given to me by a Kachin friend.

Absolutely fantastic input Aiontay! Thank you for the notes on the lances and tomahawks, and other comments which are excellent in helping us learn more on the American Indian weapons. The note on the shield with the elephant is pretty stunning ! I think it would really be interesting to review some of these surprisingly incongruent elements found on weaponry such as this, and to discuss how these might have arrived in completely unexpected cultures.
Personally I believe that the complexity of trade networking far exceeded commonly held modern comprehension and it seems research and archaeological discoveries continue to reveal evidence suggesting these astounding connections.
In many cases, material culture that may have changed hands at any number of points from its origin to its final location, would be not unsurprisingly nor unexpectedly strange to be found there.

I think Gonzalos earlier note on the presence of monkeys and parrots being found farther north in Mexico is well placed also, as geographic boundaries have little to do with nature, but it is entirely fascinating that the various raiding parties moved so deeply south regardless of what exact region they reached.

I really look forward to your posting on the items on earlier threads, and I'd like very much to hear more on Native American weapons, which is a topic we need to have more coverage on.

Thanks again, and its good to have you posting with us!

All the best,
Jim

[aiontay]

Jim, the page is acting up so I wasn't able to find the exact shield, but I believe it is someplace among the images here: http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/kiowa/mooney.htm.

[aiontay]

Here is the image of the shield: http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/kiowa/08935820.jpg.

The larger collection, which includes a number of depictions of weapons is:
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/kiowa/kiowa.htm

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by aiontay

Here is the image of the shield: http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/kiowa/08935820.jpg.

The larger collection, which includes a number of depictions of weapons is:
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/kiowa/kiowa.htm

That is outstanding, and yup, its an elephant OK!!!
Would you please send me a PM, yours is not receiving.

All the best,
Jim

[aiontay]

Jim, for some reason I can't PM you either.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by aiontay

Jim, for some reason I can't PM you either.

Im not sure what the problem is Aiontay....Ive been to the Oracle and am waiting to hear more...but you should be able to send me an email off my members profile.
I appreciate your patience,
Jim

[TVV]

Here is a picture from the Palace of Governors in Santa Fe. There is a lance in the top right corner. Unfortunately taking pictures is prohibited and thus the quality of the picture is somewhat poor, and there is no close-up.
This is too bad, because the lance is really pretty - it features a silver inlay with floral design. I am not sure if it was locally made or imported from Spain. The socket is flattened to make it into a tang.
There are some other nice items in this display, including an espada ancha (with active rust in the fullers ) and a buffalo hide shield, called "adarga".
Best regards,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by TVV

Here is a picture from the Palace of Governors in Santa Fe. There is a lance in the top right corner. Unfortunately taking pictures is prohibited and thus the quality of the picture is somewhat poor, and there is no close-up.
This is too bad, because the lance is really pretty - it features a silver inlay with floral design. I am not sure if it was locally made or imported from Spain. The socket is flattened to make it into a tang.
There are some other nice items in this display, including an espada ancha (with active rust in the fullers ) and a buffalo hide shield, called "adarga".
Best regards,
Teodor

Excellent photo Teodor! Thank you for posting this, I felt deja vu as I looked at it....I was there in October but didnt get any pictures. Great example of the espada ancha, which I hope we'll be able to discuss here sometime soon.

All the best,
Jim

[NMSUrfer]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

That is outstanding, and yup, its an elephant OK!!!
Would you please send me a PM, yours is not receiving.

All the best,

Jim

I am very late to this conversation, but I have a theory about the elephant shield. It seems to have images of sharks on it which makes me think of drawings done at Ft Marion. I seem to remember some of the men held there saw a traveling circus. I would imagine it made quite an impression, maybe enough to seek the elephant as a protector spirit on a shield.

[midelburgo]

About 6 or 7 years ago somebody in New Mexico hit a hoard of colonial weaponry. For weeks he kept listing espadas anchas at ebay, and from time to time also a lance. I saw the files recently looking for something else, if these fossil thread is of interes I could hang them.

There is also some new literature since this thread was started about jinetes de cuera.

[Jim McDougall]

WOW! Thanks guys! It is great to see these old threads revived, and absolutely please post anything you can.
N.M surfer one of my favorite states!! we are in Washington but about to turn the 'bookmobile' that direction by October.

Always looking for espada anchas and all Spanish colonial things as there are intriguing variations that need very much to be included in cataloguing.

[midelburgo]

Lets try. From the hoard.


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