A cup hilted sword rapier for coments

Gonzalo G · 20th November 2008, 07:45 PM

Good points, Marc. I think Chris and you made excellent inputs on this matter. I would like the read you more often, in relation with the ropera or the rapier, as I know you have a very valuable direct experience in the handling, study and use of this sword.

Thank you very much, gentleman.
Regards

Gonzalo

M ELEY · 22nd November 2008, 11:51 PM

Alas, I was outbid... Very nice and affordable, too.

eBay #170278679255. I was wondering if someone could post the pics of this one for me? I'm clueless when it comes to posting pics.

While not as nice or in the same catagory as that sweet example you picked up, Fernando (

)(Envy!!), I like these Caribbean/ Spanish Main type swords. They border on a form of "folk art" in a lot of ways. One very similar is pictured in Brinckerhoff's "Spanish Military Weapons", plate 125/126. Guide says ca 1700, but I'm thinking more mid-18th for this example? You will note the crescent moon-shaped markings on the grip. I've seen this on some of the Brazilian espada cutlasses before and other Colonial Spanish pieces.

Jim, I think we'd talked about this crescent design in the past as far as the connection with various Spanish ports of call, such as the Brazilian coast and Salee, but perhaps my mind is wandering??

These same markings turn up on Berber sabers as well, and as I know Morocco had many connections with Moorish Spain and Spanish shipping, I wonder if there is a connection. In any case, I'm in a state of mourning from missing out on this sword...

fernando · 22nd November 2008, 11:59 PM

Here Mark.

.

M ELEY · 23rd November 2008, 02:22 AM

Thanks so much, Fernando, and congrats on your Christmas gift!

Gonzalo G · 23rd November 2008, 05:20 AM

Caribbean?

M ELEY · 23rd November 2008, 03:54 PM

Hello Gonzalo,
Yes, I think you are right. The plain wood/horn grips, plain construction and -shaped pommel point at a Caribbean origin. I've always like these just because of their 'colorful' background associations with piracy (I know most of these were not naval, but some undoubtedly made it to sea on privateers).

Jim McDougall · 23rd November 2008, 05:59 PM

Outstanding discussion gentlemen on the development of fencing schools, and the term 'rapier', which clearly has been, and will likely remain, a point of contention. It really is great to see such well informed exchange, and carried out in such constructive manner, thank you guys!!!

Mark, I'm sorry you missed that rapier, which I agree has that Caribbean feel to it, and without more research, I am thinking this might be Brazilian. The ribbed vertical edges on the grip, the crescents (reminiscent of the so called sickle marks on blades) which we have indeed often discussed, as well as what appears to be one of the 18th century 'dragoon' blades. The pirate association as we have also discussed, deals with the continued preying on ships through the 18th century on the "Spanish Main" between South America and New Spains other colonial regions.

Returning to another point of discussion:

Concerning whether the 'cuphilt' was civilian or military, or both, this is addressed in degree in "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" by A.V.B.Norman, 1980, "...since the cuphilt is apparantly confined to Spain and lands under Spanish influence, that is southern Italy and the Spanish Netherlands, one must search in portraits of civilians from these areas, particularly in court dress. As far as I am aware, it is never illustrated in military dress in the 17th century". (pp.175-76).

With this, and as Mr. Norman's brilliant study uses works of art in establishing the typology and development of varied types of hilts, it can be presumed that through the 17th century, the cuphilt was primarily a civilian weapon.It is known however that this rule of thumb may not apply in provincial regions and in the colonies of New Spain, and the distanced and developing ad hoc officials from military ranks may well have adopted these rapiers as uniform accoutrements.
We know that the military broadswords with cuphilts were used well into the 18th century, and perhaps concurrently with the more developed hilt military swords termed 'bilbo'. It does seem however that even the very thin rapier blades of the late 17th century were shipped to the colonies to be hilted, much as the broadsword blades which were sent in such volume later in the 18th century into the 19th. I have seen such rapier blades found in the wreck of a Spanish ship in the Panama region some years ago. There were about 30 or 40 of these rapier blades and the wreck must have been from end of the 17th to early part of 18th century.

All very best regards,
Jim

fernando · 17th December 2008, 07:09 PM

My Christmas self gift has arrived,
I will attach here some more pictures of it, as well as some specifications, as advised by Chris, to help figure out the original purpose of this sword.

Total weight:1130 grs.
Length of blade as from the cross: 104 cms.
Overall length: 114 cms.
Point of balance as from the cross: 14 cms.
Length of quillons: 32 cms.
Cup bowl width:16 cms.
Blade width at forte: 20 mm.
Blade thickness at forte: 8,13 mm.
No aparent evidence of blade dents, repairs or sharpening.
Blade cross section of six tables, the last third practicaly lenticular.
Sharp (not acute) in both sides through all length.

I hope i've done it right ... Chris ?

I seem to notice that the grip copper wire wraping is quite old, probably from the period, which is a pleasant and major detail.
The pommel fixation looks fine too.
But you guys know a lot more than me about these things; tell me what you think ... please

Also i would like to know if anyone here recognizes those marks on the recazo, which certainly belong to the sword (blade) smith.

Fernando

.

Chris Evans · 17th December 2008, 10:27 PM

Hi Fernando,

Many thanks for having taken and posted the critical dimensions of your rapier - They are typical of fully evolved exemplars of the genre. That long blade must have a very good sectional density to obtain that balance with such a modest sized pommel.

It is a very nice weapon and look upon it with no little envy.

Cheers
Chris
Season's Greetings and a happy New Year to all

Gonzalo G · 18th December 2008, 04:44 AM

Fer, thank you very much for this numerical data. I think it is indispensable for the understanding of the edged weapons, as it gives much basic information about the making and use of them. It´s a pity many people only gives relevance to their visual appearance in photographs, because photographs have several limitations. A professional aproach to this subject always should be based in this data.
Un saludo

Gonzalo

22nd November 2008, 11:51 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	"Pirate" rapier on eBay Alas, I was outbid... Very nice and affordable, too. eBay #170278679255. I was wondering if someone could post the pics of this one for me? I'm clueless when it comes to posting pics. While not as nice or in the same catagory as that sweet example you picked up, Fernando ( )(Envy!!), I like these Caribbean/ Spanish Main type swords. They border on a form of "folk art" in a lot of ways. One very similar is pictured in Brinckerhoff's "Spanish Military Weapons", plate 125/126. Guide says ca 1700, but I'm thinking more mid-18th for this example? You will note the crescent moon-shaped markings on the grip. I've seen this on some of the Brazilian espada cutlasses before and other Colonial Spanish pieces. Jim, I think we'd talked about this crescent design in the past as far as the connection with various Spanish ports of call, such as the Brazilian coast and Salee, but perhaps my mind is wandering?? These same markings turn up on Berber sabers as well, and as I know Morocco had many connections with Moorish Spain and Spanish shipping, I wonder if there is a connection. In any case, I'm in a state of mourning from missing out on this sword... Last edited by M ELEY; 23rd November 2008 at 02:24 AM.

22nd November 2008, 11:59 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Here Mark. . Attached Images

17th December 2008, 07:09 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	My Christmas self gift has arrived, I will attach here some more pictures of it, as well as some specifications, as advised by Chris, to help figure out the original purpose of this sword. Total weight:1130 grs. Length of blade as from the cross: 104 cms. Overall length: 114 cms. Point of balance as from the cross: 14 cms. Length of quillons: 32 cms. Cup bowl width:16 cms. Blade width at forte: 20 mm. Blade thickness at forte: 8,13 mm. No aparent evidence of blade dents, repairs or sharpening. Blade cross section of six tables, the last third practicaly lenticular. Sharp (not acute) in both sides through all length. I hope i've done it right ... Chris ? I seem to notice that the grip copper wire wraping is quite old, probably from the period, which is a pleasant and major detail. The pommel fixation looks fine too. But you guys know a lot more than me about these things; tell me what you think ... please Also i would like to know if anyone here recognizes those marks on the recazo, which certainly belong to the sword (blade) smith. Fernando . Attached Images

20th November 2008, 07:45 PM	#1
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Good points, Marc. I think Chris and you made excellent inputs on this matter. I would like the read you more often, in relation with the ropera or the rapier, as I know you have a very valuable direct experience in the handling, study and use of this sword. Thank you very much, gentleman. Regards Gonzalo

23rd November 2008, 02:22 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks so much, Fernando, and congrats on your Christmas gift!

23rd November 2008, 05:20 AM	#5
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Caribbean?

23rd November 2008, 03:54 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Gonzalo, Yes, I think you are right. The plain wood/horn grips, plain construction and -shaped pommel point at a Caribbean origin. I've always like these just because of their 'colorful' background associations with piracy (I know most of these were not naval, but some undoubtedly made it to sea on privateers).

23rd November 2008, 05:59 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Outstanding discussion gentlemen on the development of fencing schools, and the term 'rapier', which clearly has been, and will likely remain, a point of contention. It really is great to see such well informed exchange, and carried out in such constructive manner, thank you guys!!! Mark, I'm sorry you missed that rapier, which I agree has that Caribbean feel to it, and without more research, I am thinking this might be Brazilian. The ribbed vertical edges on the grip, the crescents (reminiscent of the so called sickle marks on blades) which we have indeed often discussed, as well as what appears to be one of the 18th century 'dragoon' blades. The pirate association as we have also discussed, deals with the continued preying on ships through the 18th century on the "Spanish Main" between South America and New Spains other colonial regions. Returning to another point of discussion: Concerning whether the 'cuphilt' was civilian or military, or both, this is addressed in degree in "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" by A.V.B.Norman, 1980, "...since the cuphilt is apparantly confined to Spain and lands under Spanish influence, that is southern Italy and the Spanish Netherlands, one must search in portraits of civilians from these areas, particularly in court dress. As far as I am aware, it is never illustrated in military dress in the 17th century". (pp.175-76). With this, and as Mr. Norman's brilliant study uses works of art in establishing the typology and development of varied types of hilts, it can be presumed that through the 17th century, the cuphilt was primarily a civilian weapon.It is known however that this rule of thumb may not apply in provincial regions and in the colonies of New Spain, and the distanced and developing ad hoc officials from military ranks may well have adopted these rapiers as uniform accoutrements. We know that the military broadswords with cuphilts were used well into the 18th century, and perhaps concurrently with the more developed hilt military swords termed 'bilbo'. It does seem however that even the very thin rapier blades of the late 17th century were shipped to the colonies to be hilted, much as the broadsword blades which were sent in such volume later in the 18th century into the 19th. I have seen such rapier blades found in the wreck of a Spanish ship in the Panama region some years ago. There were about 30 or 40 of these rapier blades and the wreck must have been from end of the 17th to early part of 18th century. All very best regards, Jim

17th December 2008, 10:27 PM	#9
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Fernando, Many thanks for having taken and posted the critical dimensions of your rapier - They are typical of fully evolved exemplars of the genre. That long blade must have a very good sectional density to obtain that balance with such a modest sized pommel. It is a very nice weapon and look upon it with no little envy. Cheers Chris Season's Greetings and a happy New Year to all

18th December 2008, 04:44 AM	#10
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Fer, thank you very much for this numerical data. I think it is indispensable for the understanding of the edged weapons, as it gives much basic information about the making and use of them. It´s a pity many people only gives relevance to their visual appearance in photographs, because photographs have several limitations. A professional aproach to this subject always should be based in this data. Un saludo Gonzalo