Orientation of the grip of this keris

sipakatuo · 20th November 2008, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I have always assumed that hilts were secured to the blades with damar when they were to be used for fighting to make sure that they do not become separated in the heat of battle.

True indeed, apart from that there is also mystical factor. Thank you for adding.

BluErf · 21st November 2008, 05:21 PM

Hi all,

I attach pictures of 2 Bugis kerises from my collection - one Straits Bugis, prob from the Peninsula side, and one Sulawesi Bugis. Both have pretty straight/unbent peksi (in Malay terminology). You could use a ruler to verify the centre line of each peksi remains true from ganja to the end the peksi. I should have some more Bugis kerises from various locations with pretty straight peksi.

However, I have also seen many Bugis kerises with bent peksi.

On the point about chieftain kerises, I cannot pinpoint where I first heard the about it. I do hear my Malay collector friends call such kerises "keris penghulu", which I understand to mean village headman or a chief of sorts. I see the term "chieftain" as a convenient tag to identify such types of Bugis kerises in the Peninsular/Sumatran context, defined by big sampir, broad batang, and typically a short but broad 7-waved Bugis blade. These kerises seemed to be a Peninsular/Sumatran construct, and not found in Sulawesi.

In the Peninsular/Sumatran Bugis context, the bigger the size of the sampir, the higher the status of the wearer. There seemed to be no fixed rule as to how big or small it should be for any given social standing of the chief, and I suppose much depends on the economic wellbeing of the keris owner. That said, I don't see any of this "chieftain" kerises as being really really high class. The epitome of Bugis keris in the Peninsular/Sumatran context is probably the golden keris on the cover of Court Arts of Indonesia, from the Riau-Lingga empire, if I remember correctly. That keris has a normal-sized sampir covered in finely chased gold. I suppose the "chieftain" keris could be a phenomenon amongst the "village head" level of people.

On the orientation of the hilt, even if the few specimens here have had their hilts fixed sideways with resin, it may not prove that it is the 'correct' way, I feel. I turn my Bugis keris hilts that way myself all the time - when I am storing them. I'm not saying that this is the reason for these keris hilts to turn up like that in the original context, but surely for practical reasons, the hilt has to be turned to face forward again when necessary? And as pointed out, turning the hilt sideways could have been to signify a non-aggressive stance, or perhaps it made sense for sea-faring Bugis not to have the hilt get in the way. So perhaps there are a few ways of positioning the hilt, and the correctness of either position may not be that important.

Jussi M. · 21st November 2008, 08:43 PM

Please could you tell me how long are these blades with reverse hilts?

Thanks.

J

A. G. Maisey · 21st November 2008, 11:27 PM

The length of the blade on the keris I have posted a photo of is 11.5 inches.

The other keris in my possession that had a reverse grip has a blade that is a fraction shorter than this.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd November 2008, 12:12 AM

Thank you Kai Wee for clarifying this "chieftain" terminology. I think that I now might have some small understanding of what is meant by the term.

I thank you also for bringing to my attention a defect in my recent attitude towards posts made to this discussion group.

I have slipped into the habit of making posts in much the same manner that I would adopt if I were to be engaged in casual conversation with a group of friends. During the last 24 hours it has been most forcibly brought to my attention by events which have occurred outside this discussion group, that it is a great mistake to adopt an on-line persona that reflects one's personal approach and character.

I will take a step back, and try to avoid such a relaxed manner in future.

In respect of this current thread, I will attempt to correct some of the statements I have made, and rephrase them in more precise language.

Post of 18th November:-

Quote:- "I believe that the original position of the grip on this keris was correct."

This is very poorly phrased.
If I had wanted to use the word "correct", I should have defined the concept of "correct" in this context. I did not, and the result is a statement that can be read in many ways, resulting in a misunderstanding of the idea I wished to convey.

The idea I wished to convey was that in its place of origin, it was highly probable that the hilt had been reversed by a owner or user of this keris, who was indigenous to that location.

I apologise for any misunderstanding caused by my poor use of my native language.

Quote:- "The tang on these Bugis type keris nearly always seems to be bent to some degree, I doubt that I have ever pulled a keris of the generic Bugis type apart and found it with a straight tang---"

Again, a poorly constructed and imprecise, not to say contradictory statement.I have attempted to encapsulate two opposing ideas into the same construct.

I should have written something like this:- "My experience gained from handling many Bugis type keris over many years indicates that in most cases the tang is bent to greater or lesser degree."

This morning I have checked a sample of 19 of these keris; I have found that in 16 keris the tang has some degree of bend , in three keris the tang could be considered to be straight.

One thing that Kai Wee has highlighted very effectively is the question of the meaning of "correct".

Exactly what does "correct" mean in the context of hilt orientation?

I would propose that in fact, there is no overall "correct" hilt orientation, without a corresponding definition of context.

Thus, in the case of "correct" orientation of a hilt on a keris to be worn in a court environment, that "correctness" would reflect the requirements of this environment.

In the case of "correct" orientation of a keris to be used as weapon, that "correctness" would reflect the personal preferences of the user.

Again I apologise for any misunderstandings caused by my relaxed attitude.

Jussi M. · 22nd November 2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The length of the blade on the keris I have posted a photo of is 11.5 inches.

The other keris in my possession that had a reverse grip has a blade that is a fraction shorter than this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In the case of "correct" orientation of a keris to be used as weapon, that "correctness" would reflect the personal preferences of the user.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

(...) the exact postion will depend on what is most comfortable in your hand (...)

Maybe there is a very simple explanation to all this? Reverse hilt = reverse grip?

Please do note: both pics are hotlinked to websites which hold rights for these pictures.

Thanks,

J.

David · 22nd November 2008, 06:08 PM

Jussi, have you ever tried holding this type of keris hilt in this manner. Besides, i have serious doubts that the bugis keris in question would ever be used in an overhand stabbing action like the one shown in the relief.

21st November 2008, 05:21 PM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi all, I attach pictures of 2 Bugis kerises from my collection - one Straits Bugis, prob from the Peninsula side, and one Sulawesi Bugis. Both have pretty straight/unbent peksi (in Malay terminology). You could use a ruler to verify the centre line of each peksi remains true from ganja to the end the peksi. I should have some more Bugis kerises from various locations with pretty straight peksi. However, I have also seen many Bugis kerises with bent peksi. On the point about chieftain kerises, I cannot pinpoint where I first heard the about it. I do hear my Malay collector friends call such kerises "keris penghulu", which I understand to mean village headman or a chief of sorts. I see the term "chieftain" as a convenient tag to identify such types of Bugis kerises in the Peninsular/Sumatran context, defined by big sampir, broad batang, and typically a short but broad 7-waved Bugis blade. These kerises seemed to be a Peninsular/Sumatran construct, and not found in Sulawesi. In the Peninsular/Sumatran Bugis context, the bigger the size of the sampir, the higher the status of the wearer. There seemed to be no fixed rule as to how big or small it should be for any given social standing of the chief, and I suppose much depends on the economic wellbeing of the keris owner. That said, I don't see any of this "chieftain" kerises as being really really high class. The epitome of Bugis keris in the Peninsular/Sumatran context is probably the golden keris on the cover of Court Arts of Indonesia, from the Riau-Lingga empire, if I remember correctly. That keris has a normal-sized sampir covered in finely chased gold. I suppose the "chieftain" keris could be a phenomenon amongst the "village head" level of people. On the orientation of the hilt, even if the few specimens here have had their hilts fixed sideways with resin, it may not prove that it is the 'correct' way, I feel. I turn my Bugis keris hilts that way myself all the time - when I am storing them. I'm not saying that this is the reason for these keris hilts to turn up like that in the original context, but surely for practical reasons, the hilt has to be turned to face forward again when necessary? And as pointed out, turning the hilt sideways could have been to signify a non-aggressive stance, or perhaps it made sense for sea-faring Bugis not to have the hilt get in the way. So perhaps there are a few ways of positioning the hilt, and the correctness of either position may not be that important. Attached Images

21st November 2008, 08:43 PM	#3
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Please could you tell me how long are these blades with reverse hilts? Thanks. J

21st November 2008, 11:27 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	The length of the blade on the keris I have posted a photo of is 11.5 inches. The other keris in my possession that had a reverse grip has a blade that is a fraction shorter than this.

22nd November 2008, 12:12 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you Kai Wee for clarifying this "chieftain" terminology. I think that I now might have some small understanding of what is meant by the term. I thank you also for bringing to my attention a defect in my recent attitude towards posts made to this discussion group. I have slipped into the habit of making posts in much the same manner that I would adopt if I were to be engaged in casual conversation with a group of friends. During the last 24 hours it has been most forcibly brought to my attention by events which have occurred outside this discussion group, that it is a great mistake to adopt an on-line persona that reflects one's personal approach and character. I will take a step back, and try to avoid such a relaxed manner in future. In respect of this current thread, I will attempt to correct some of the statements I have made, and rephrase them in more precise language. Post of 18th November:- Quote:- "I believe that the original position of the grip on this keris was correct." This is very poorly phrased. If I had wanted to use the word "correct", I should have defined the concept of "correct" in this context. I did not, and the result is a statement that can be read in many ways, resulting in a misunderstanding of the idea I wished to convey. The idea I wished to convey was that in its place of origin, it was highly probable that the hilt had been reversed by a owner or user of this keris, who was indigenous to that location. I apologise for any misunderstanding caused by my poor use of my native language. Quote:- "The tang on these Bugis type keris nearly always seems to be bent to some degree, I doubt that I have ever pulled a keris of the generic Bugis type apart and found it with a straight tang---" Again, a poorly constructed and imprecise, not to say contradictory statement.I have attempted to encapsulate two opposing ideas into the same construct. I should have written something like this:- "My experience gained from handling many Bugis type keris over many years indicates that in most cases the tang is bent to greater or lesser degree." This morning I have checked a sample of 19 of these keris; I have found that in 16 keris the tang has some degree of bend , in three keris the tang could be considered to be straight. One thing that Kai Wee has highlighted very effectively is the question of the meaning of "correct". Exactly what does "correct" mean in the context of hilt orientation? I would propose that in fact, there is no overall "correct" hilt orientation, without a corresponding definition of context. Thus, in the case of "correct" orientation of a hilt on a keris to be worn in a court environment, that "correctness" would reflect the requirements of this environment. In the case of "correct" orientation of a keris to be used as weapon, that "correctness" would reflect the personal preferences of the user. Again I apologise for any misunderstandings caused by my relaxed attitude.

22nd November 2008, 06:08 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Jussi, have you ever tried holding this type of keris hilt in this manner. Besides, i have serious doubts that the bugis keris in question would ever be used in an overhand stabbing action like the one shown in the relief.