A cup hilted sword rapier for coments

Marc · 20th November 2008, 10:34 AM

Agreed.

Taxonomy is a tool, not the end, something that seems to be frequently forgotten. It makes things easier, helps in classification, allows for a more flexible and useful data treatment and contributes (ideally) in building a common language through which all those dealing with the subject can better understand each other. But, as so many things, it also works in layers. So, "rapier" is enough to evoke among those who are aware of the terminology an object specific enough to communicate the meaning. From there, we can start to add information to be as precise as necessary, and there’s where taxonomy and the consensual language it brings starts to be useful. So, for example, we can start to talk about a swept-hilt, a cup-hilt, number of branches, an urn, onion or cylindrical pommel, length, shape and section of quillions, characteristics of their finials, morphology of the knuckleguard, the grip, the ricasso, the channels, marks, inscriptions, edges, point, style of decoration, chronology, geographical area, etc… So, yes, “rapier” applied to this kind of swords is modern. So are we (some more than others

). It’s also useful, that’s why it’s used. I don’t think we should spend much time talking about if the term is “proper” or not, we should instead check if we agree or not in its use, and then we can start discussing about the object itself, instead of about the terms we use to describe it.

Chris Evans · 20th November 2008, 01:20 PM

Hi Marc,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

...and contributes (ideally) in building a common language through which all those dealing with the subject can better understand each other.

This I think hits the nail on the head - And when it comes to swords, the therm `Rapier' has to be probably the most open to miscommunication.

Cheers
Chris

Gonzalo G · 20th November 2008, 07:45 PM

Good points, Marc. I think Chris and you made excellent inputs on this matter. I would like the read you more often, in relation with the ropera or the rapier, as I know you have a very valuable direct experience in the handling, study and use of this sword.

Thank you very much, gentleman.
Regards

Gonzalo

M ELEY · 22nd November 2008, 11:51 PM

Alas, I was outbid... Very nice and affordable, too.

eBay #170278679255. I was wondering if someone could post the pics of this one for me? I'm clueless when it comes to posting pics.

While not as nice or in the same catagory as that sweet example you picked up, Fernando (

)(Envy!!), I like these Caribbean/ Spanish Main type swords. They border on a form of "folk art" in a lot of ways. One very similar is pictured in Brinckerhoff's "Spanish Military Weapons", plate 125/126. Guide says ca 1700, but I'm thinking more mid-18th for this example? You will note the crescent moon-shaped markings on the grip. I've seen this on some of the Brazilian espada cutlasses before and other Colonial Spanish pieces.

Jim, I think we'd talked about this crescent design in the past as far as the connection with various Spanish ports of call, such as the Brazilian coast and Salee, but perhaps my mind is wandering??

These same markings turn up on Berber sabers as well, and as I know Morocco had many connections with Moorish Spain and Spanish shipping, I wonder if there is a connection. In any case, I'm in a state of mourning from missing out on this sword...

fernando · 22nd November 2008, 11:59 PM

Here Mark.

.

M ELEY · 23rd November 2008, 02:22 AM

Thanks so much, Fernando, and congrats on your Christmas gift!

Gonzalo G · 23rd November 2008, 05:20 AM

Caribbean?

fernando · 17th December 2008, 07:09 PM

My Christmas self gift has arrived,
I will attach here some more pictures of it, as well as some specifications, as advised by Chris, to help figure out the original purpose of this sword.

Total weight:1130 grs.
Length of blade as from the cross: 104 cms.
Overall length: 114 cms.
Point of balance as from the cross: 14 cms.
Length of quillons: 32 cms.
Cup bowl width:16 cms.
Blade width at forte: 20 mm.
Blade thickness at forte: 8,13 mm.
No aparent evidence of blade dents, repairs or sharpening.
Blade cross section of six tables, the last third practicaly lenticular.
Sharp (not acute) in both sides through all length.

I hope i've done it right ... Chris ?

I seem to notice that the grip copper wire wraping is quite old, probably from the period, which is a pleasant and major detail.
The pommel fixation looks fine too.
But you guys know a lot more than me about these things; tell me what you think ... please

Also i would like to know if anyone here recognizes those marks on the recazo, which certainly belong to the sword (blade) smith.

Fernando

.

22nd November 2008, 11:51 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	"Pirate" rapier on eBay Alas, I was outbid... Very nice and affordable, too. eBay #170278679255. I was wondering if someone could post the pics of this one for me? I'm clueless when it comes to posting pics. While not as nice or in the same catagory as that sweet example you picked up, Fernando ( )(Envy!!), I like these Caribbean/ Spanish Main type swords. They border on a form of "folk art" in a lot of ways. One very similar is pictured in Brinckerhoff's "Spanish Military Weapons", plate 125/126. Guide says ca 1700, but I'm thinking more mid-18th for this example? You will note the crescent moon-shaped markings on the grip. I've seen this on some of the Brazilian espada cutlasses before and other Colonial Spanish pieces. Jim, I think we'd talked about this crescent design in the past as far as the connection with various Spanish ports of call, such as the Brazilian coast and Salee, but perhaps my mind is wandering?? These same markings turn up on Berber sabers as well, and as I know Morocco had many connections with Moorish Spain and Spanish shipping, I wonder if there is a connection. In any case, I'm in a state of mourning from missing out on this sword... Last edited by M ELEY; 23rd November 2008 at 02:24 AM.

22nd November 2008, 11:59 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Here Mark. . Attached Images

17th December 2008, 07:09 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	My Christmas self gift has arrived, I will attach here some more pictures of it, as well as some specifications, as advised by Chris, to help figure out the original purpose of this sword. Total weight:1130 grs. Length of blade as from the cross: 104 cms. Overall length: 114 cms. Point of balance as from the cross: 14 cms. Length of quillons: 32 cms. Cup bowl width:16 cms. Blade width at forte: 20 mm. Blade thickness at forte: 8,13 mm. No aparent evidence of blade dents, repairs or sharpening. Blade cross section of six tables, the last third practicaly lenticular. Sharp (not acute) in both sides through all length. I hope i've done it right ... Chris ? I seem to notice that the grip copper wire wraping is quite old, probably from the period, which is a pleasant and major detail. The pommel fixation looks fine too. But you guys know a lot more than me about these things; tell me what you think ... please Also i would like to know if anyone here recognizes those marks on the recazo, which certainly belong to the sword (blade) smith. Fernando . Attached Images

20th November 2008, 10:34 AM	#1
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Agreed. Taxonomy is a tool, not the end, something that seems to be frequently forgotten. It makes things easier, helps in classification, allows for a more flexible and useful data treatment and contributes (ideally) in building a common language through which all those dealing with the subject can better understand each other. But, as so many things, it also works in layers. So, "rapier" is enough to evoke among those who are aware of the terminology an object specific enough to communicate the meaning. From there, we can start to add information to be as precise as necessary, and there’s where taxonomy and the consensual language it brings starts to be useful. So, for example, we can start to talk about a swept-hilt, a cup-hilt, number of branches, an urn, onion or cylindrical pommel, length, shape and section of quillions, characteristics of their finials, morphology of the knuckleguard, the grip, the ricasso, the channels, marks, inscriptions, edges, point, style of decoration, chronology, geographical area, etc… So, yes, “rapier” applied to this kind of swords is modern. So are we (some more than others ). It’s also useful, that’s why it’s used. I don’t think we should spend much time talking about if the term is “proper” or not, we should instead check if we agree or not in its use, and then we can start discussing about the object itself, instead of about the terms we use to describe it.

20th November 2008, 07:45 PM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Good points, Marc. I think Chris and you made excellent inputs on this matter. I would like the read you more often, in relation with the ropera or the rapier, as I know you have a very valuable direct experience in the handling, study and use of this sword. Thank you very much, gentleman. Regards Gonzalo

23rd November 2008, 02:22 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks so much, Fernando, and congrats on your Christmas gift!

23rd November 2008, 05:20 AM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Caribbean?