Orientation of the grip of this keris

kulbuntet · 18th November 2008, 08:15 PM

Hi Fredy,

I do also think it's a bugis from sulawesi, but im no expert. But stil i can see the garuda on the sorsoran(V shape). I have one like it, but without luk.

Her a pic, how it's mounted.

You have to twist the hilt till it is in comfort in your hand. I hope it is clear for you, iff not tel us and one of us wil try to help. One knows a bit..all know a lot.

Regards and congrats...nice blade and willah. Maybe someone can help you with a sheath(sarong)...try out and you wil know.

David · 18th November 2008, 09:57 PM

That's a nice looking Bugis keris. Kulbuntet's photo should set you straight, but he is also right that the exact postion will depend on what is most comfortable in your hand. It should be based on that grip in the photo though.
On of our Peninsula area friends might be able to put you on to a new sheath, but i suspect that it will cost you quite a bit more than the price you paid for the keris.

A. G. Maisey · 18th November 2008, 11:46 PM

I believe that the original position of the grip on this keris was correct.

I have seen a number of examples of this type of keris with the grip apparently reversed. I own two myself, both of which were very old acquisitions into Australia, and the hilts were fitted with damar, that is, they were glued into place with a natural resin.

I have also seen at least one old photograph showing a keris like this being worn.

The tang on these Bugis type keris nearly always seems to be bent to some degree, I doubt that I have ever pulled a keris of the generic Bugis type apart and found it with a straight tang--- and I've taken apart one hell of a lot of these keris.

I do not know exactly where, when or why these keris have reversed grips, but it is absolutely certain that they do exist and the reversed grip is correct.

kulbuntet · 19th November 2008, 12:15 AM

To Allan,

I know that the sulawesi buginese do take off their hilt sometimes, when they are a guest in some ones house, or court. So that they can't use their keris....

Could it be like that? I think that it is difficult to hold/use the keris like that.

Allan is right about the fact that sometimes bugi kerisses show the reversed grip. I always thought it was just fitted wrong.

A. G. Maisey · 19th November 2008, 12:43 AM

Any Bugis keris that came out of S.E. Asia a long time ago, and that I have handled, have always had the hilt fixed very firmly, more often than not with damar.

Possibly these reversed grip keris were used in a different manner, or worn like that for a particular reason. It occurs to me that it would be a very practical way to mount a keris hilt for somebody working around ropes, such as a seaman.

David · 19th November 2008, 03:37 AM

I certainly would not argue that you and others have occasionally come across a hilt fixed into this "reverse" position, for whatever reason. However, i don't believe that one can automatically assume that the original position of this grip was therefore correct. We have no idea whose hands this keris was in over it's recent (and not so recent) past. Did this keris come out of S.E. Asia a long time ago, or has it been in more Western hands for many years? I certainly don't know, but it seems strange to me that you would form a conclusion based on the exception to the rule.
I do know that the opposite orientation, the one showed by Kulbunet, allows this keris to best be wielded as a weapon. It therefore seems a logical explanation to photos that might show a reverse orientation (again, i believe, the exception to the rule) that the wearer is perhaps show a peaceful intent. I do realize that this does not explain keris that have this reverse orientation fixed with damar, but how many of these have you actually encountered in you 50 some odd years of experience?

A. G. Maisey · 19th November 2008, 06:50 AM

I have two of these keris, David.

One has the end of the grip broken off , making it considerably shorter in the grip. (pictured)

One of these keris belonged to my mother's father, that is, my grandfather, and he brought it to Australia around 1920.

The other one I bought at an arms fair.

I have taken both these keris apart, and both had the grips fixed in the reverse position with damar, I needed to heat the blades to remove the hilts.

I have also seen an old photograph of a keris being worn in this way.I saw it in a book, but I cannot remember which book.

Yes, I agree, this way of mounting a hilt is an exception to the rule, but if a tang has been purposely bent to allow such mounting, I believe it is very likely that the hilt was fixed in that way in its place of origin.

It probably comes down to just how the hilt was fixed, and how it sat on the blade when moved to a normal position before the tang was straightened.

One other thing:- both of my keris that had hilts mounted in this way have blades that appear to share relevant characteristics with Freddy's blade, they are broad, have very stiff gonjos, and the kembang kacang is very internal. To me, they seem to be variations of the same type of blade. If we were talking tangguh---which I don't think we can with these types of blades---I'd be inclined to think they were candidates to be classified into the same tangguh.

Yes, I accept that in the case of Freddy's keris, we do not know its history, and no mention of the way in which it was secured is made. Maybe I was a little too positive in my previous remarks, however, although I could be wrong, I don't think I am.

19th November 2008, 06:50 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I have two of these keris, David. One has the end of the grip broken off , making it considerably shorter in the grip. (pictured) One of these keris belonged to my mother's father, that is, my grandfather, and he brought it to Australia around 1920. The other one I bought at an arms fair. I have taken both these keris apart, and both had the grips fixed in the reverse position with damar, I needed to heat the blades to remove the hilts. I have also seen an old photograph of a keris being worn in this way.I saw it in a book, but I cannot remember which book. Yes, I agree, this way of mounting a hilt is an exception to the rule, but if a tang has been purposely bent to allow such mounting, I believe it is very likely that the hilt was fixed in that way in its place of origin. It probably comes down to just how the hilt was fixed, and how it sat on the blade when moved to a normal position before the tang was straightened. One other thing:- both of my keris that had hilts mounted in this way have blades that appear to share relevant characteristics with Freddy's blade, they are broad, have very stiff gonjos, and the kembang kacang is very internal. To me, they seem to be variations of the same type of blade. If we were talking tangguh---which I don't think we can with these types of blades---I'd be inclined to think they were candidates to be classified into the same tangguh. Yes, I accept that in the case of Freddy's keris, we do not know its history, and no mention of the way in which it was secured is made. Maybe I was a little too positive in my previous remarks, however, although I could be wrong, I don't think I am. Attached Images

18th November 2008, 08:15 PM	#1
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Hi Fredy, I do also think it's a bugis from sulawesi, but im no expert. But stil i can see the garuda on the sorsoran(V shape). I have one like it, but without luk. Her a pic, how it's mounted. You have to twist the hilt till it is in comfort in your hand. I hope it is clear for you, iff not tel us and one of us wil try to help. One knows a bit..all know a lot. Regards and congrats...nice blade and willah. Maybe someone can help you with a sheath(sarong)...try out and you wil know.

18th November 2008, 09:57 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	That's a nice looking Bugis keris. Kulbuntet's photo should set you straight, but he is also right that the exact postion will depend on what is most comfortable in your hand. It should be based on that grip in the photo though. On of our Peninsula area friends might be able to put you on to a new sheath, but i suspect that it will cost you quite a bit more than the price you paid for the keris.

18th November 2008, 11:46 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I believe that the original position of the grip on this keris was correct. I have seen a number of examples of this type of keris with the grip apparently reversed. I own two myself, both of which were very old acquisitions into Australia, and the hilts were fitted with damar, that is, they were glued into place with a natural resin. I have also seen at least one old photograph showing a keris like this being worn. The tang on these Bugis type keris nearly always seems to be bent to some degree, I doubt that I have ever pulled a keris of the generic Bugis type apart and found it with a straight tang--- and I've taken apart one hell of a lot of these keris. I do not know exactly where, when or why these keris have reversed grips, but it is absolutely certain that they do exist and the reversed grip is correct.

19th November 2008, 12:15 AM	#4
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	To Allan, I know that the sulawesi buginese do take off their hilt sometimes, when they are a guest in some ones house, or court. So that they can't use their keris.... Could it be like that? I think that it is difficult to hold/use the keris like that. Allan is right about the fact that sometimes bugi kerisses show the reversed grip. I always thought it was just fitted wrong.

19th November 2008, 12:43 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Any Bugis keris that came out of S.E. Asia a long time ago, and that I have handled, have always had the hilt fixed very firmly, more often than not with damar. Possibly these reversed grip keris were used in a different manner, or worn like that for a particular reason. It occurs to me that it would be a very practical way to mount a keris hilt for somebody working around ropes, such as a seaman.

19th November 2008, 03:37 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I certainly would not argue that you and others have occasionally come across a hilt fixed into this "reverse" position, for whatever reason. However, i don't believe that one can automatically assume that the original position of this grip was therefore correct. We have no idea whose hands this keris was in over it's recent (and not so recent) past. Did this keris come out of S.E. Asia a long time ago, or has it been in more Western hands for many years? I certainly don't know, but it seems strange to me that you would form a conclusion based on the exception to the rule. I do know that the opposite orientation, the one showed by Kulbunet, allows this keris to best be wielded as a weapon. It therefore seems a logical explanation to photos that might show a reverse orientation (again, i believe, the exception to the rule) that the wearer is perhaps show a peaceful intent. I do realize that this does not explain keris that have this reverse orientation fixed with damar, but how many of these have you actually encountered in you 50 some odd years of experience?