Spanish Rapiers, a Bilbo FYC.

Atlantia · 16th November 2008, 05:05 PM

The border of 'petals'? is the same on both sides. The designs are crudely executed but quite complex. Excuse my scribbles, they do make the designs clearer than the photos do. I think it defiantely looks like a sunflower. Any thoughts as to why or when?
Thanks
Gene

fearn · 16th November 2008, 05:24 PM

Hi Atlantia,

Interesting, and thanks for the sketches. Oddly enough, that "iris" looks more like the fruits of a larkspur (see first image) or even wolfsbane fruits (see second image) than an iris.

As for the sunflower, I'll repeat my first position: it's a relative of a sunflower, but I'm not convinced it's a sunflower. The reason I'm not convinced is two-fold: first, sunflowers tend to have more than eight petals (they're technically ray flowers), and second, they tend to have petals of a single color, where the petals on the rapier flower have a band halfway up. That band is characteristic of many other species of sunflower relatives, so I tend to think it's not a sunflower.

One thing I think we can ignore is the leaves under the flowers or fruits. Since they're the same for both flowers (unlike in nature), I think they're just a standardized leaf shape, without other meaning.

Best,

F

Atlantia · 16th November 2008, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Atlantia,

Interesting, and thanks for the sketches. Oddly enough, that "iris" looks more like the fruits of a larkspur (see first image) or even wolfsbane fruits (see second image) than an iris.

As for the sunflower, I'll repeat my first position: it's a relative of a sunflower, but I'm not convinced it's a sunflower. The reason I'm not convinced is two-fold: first, sunflowers tend to have more than eight petals (they're technically ray flowers), and second, they tend to have petals of a single color, where the petals on the rapier flower have a band halfway up. That band is characteristic of many other species of sunflower relatives, so I tend to think it's not a sunflower.

One thing I think we can ignore is the leaves under the flowers or fruits. Since they're the same for both flowers (unlike in nature), I think they're just a standardized leaf shape, without other meaning.

Best,

F

Ah I see,
Great points Fearn, I hadn't made the connection with the inner patterning on the petals. And of course (doh!) Sunflowers have LOTS of petals, lol, not just eight! Thanks for a new and clearly clearer perspective on this, I think I've had it so many years, I cant see the wood for the trees!
I'd always juat thought the smaller design was the flower 'closed', but you think its something else entirely?

fearn · 17th November 2008, 07:25 PM

Hi Atlantia,

It's always fun trying to figure these things out. So far as the smaller design goes, I'm pretty sure that it's not the closed form of the big one. In general, the bud of the sunflower family looks something like an artichoke (not surprisingly, because artichokes are distant relatives of sunflowers), so that three-parted whatever-it-is is definitely not a closed sunflower.

As for what it is, I've already made my guesses above. It would have been nice for it to have been an iris, because irises do show up in heraldry. One good example is the fleur-de-lys. That pattern really looks like the fruits of some members of the buttercup family, such as larkspurs or wolfsbane. These are semi-reasonable guesses, as the designer could easily find these fruits in a garden or a meadow near the shop. WHY someone sould choose such a pattern really puzzles me. Larkspurs and wolfsbane are fairly poisonous, so there might be some symbolism there. There might also be some family name association. Whatever it is, I'm currently puzzled.

Feel free to keep bugging me about it. Perhaps the right question will shake loose a better answer.

Best,

F

katana · 18th November 2008, 09:32 PM

Hi Atlantia,
as Fearn has pointed out, the 'symbology' might indeed be similar to the serpentine bladed rapier.

".......Fleur-de-lys
The French symbol of royalty to the far left is known as the Fleur-de-lys. It originated with the first of the Merovingian kings of France. This symbol comes out of Sumeria and is directly related to the Tree of Life. It can be traced all the way back to the Sumerian god Enki. In the image he is holding a pot of flowing waters with the symbol above it. This is also a maritime symbol which always indicates north. The next illustration is from Urartu which clearly shows the fluer attached to the fruit. Starting the next row is a Phoenician drawing of the Tree of Life. Notice the fluer at the center top. This is a style known as the vortical tree as is the following Assyrian tree. The final example of the fluer is from a piece of metal work from Urartu. It dons the helmet of a genii. The Fleur-de-lys has been so widely used that it is considered classical.

Rosette
Then we have the rosette. It too is a symbol connected to the Tree of Life. It has eight spoke-like leaves just like the symbol for the sun god Shamash. Standard rosette design with center dark pit to the far left. Next is Urartian metal work with a band of rosettes. The last image is from a Sumerian seal showing rosette's connection to the tree. This symbol is closely associated with the goddess Inanna and of course to the Tree of Life. This is a pan-Mesopotamian symbol....."

The 8 petalled flower fits in with the rosette and the 3 'leaved' configuration seems to suggest the Fleur-de-lys. The above paragraphs and additional pictures (which are a little small but worth looking at) are here...approx. 1/3 page down

http://firstlegend.info/3rivers/3rivervalley.html

Kind Regards David

fearn · 18th November 2008, 11:16 PM

Hi David,

Another debate?

Yes, I would be very happy if the small thing was a fleur-de-lys, aka an iris. That would solve a lot of problems, because it would be safely inside the symbol cannon of Europe.

Thing is, the artist took some trouble to put details into the picture that made me decide it wasn't a fleur-de-lys. That leads to two possible conclusions:

1. It's not a fleur-de-lys, or

2. It is supposed to be a fleur-de-lys, but the artist was so clueless about what a fleur-de-lys represents (an iris flower, which has six visible parts) as a three parted whatzis with two leaves underneath.

The second interpretation isn't impossible, as there are some fleur-de-lys images that could have been the model for this one.

Basically, the artist may have wanted the fleur-de-lys to look "realistic," but lacking any knowledge of what the fleur-de-lys represented, he didn't raid his wife's flower garden for an iris flower, but scratched out this figure instead. It certainly happens, and I can think of a few Hollywood movie sets that were decorated with the same lack of attention to detail.

Still, there is the possibility that the artist did know what he was trying to represent, in which case, it's not a fleur-de-lys, but something else.

Fun!

F

katana · 19th November 2008, 01:06 PM

Hi Fearn,
I agree with what you have said. However, you have previously stated that there are no 8 petaled flowers .... if it was a literal interpretation of a flower then it must be incorrect. Assuming that it was not a mistake then we could asume that the Fleur-de-lys is also not a 'literal' interpretation either.

Irrespective of this ....why are two symbols associated with the tree of life, together on the cup

It seems that this and the serpentine rapier display similar symbology ....coincidence

Regards David

16th November 2008, 05:24 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Atlantia, Interesting, and thanks for the sketches. Oddly enough, that "iris" looks more like the fruits of a larkspur (see first image) or even wolfsbane fruits (see second image) than an iris. As for the sunflower, I'll repeat my first position: it's a relative of a sunflower, but I'm not convinced it's a sunflower. The reason I'm not convinced is two-fold: first, sunflowers tend to have more than eight petals (they're technically ray flowers), and second, they tend to have petals of a single color, where the petals on the rapier flower have a band halfway up. That band is characteristic of many other species of sunflower relatives, so I tend to think it's not a sunflower. One thing I think we can ignore is the leaves under the flowers or fruits. Since they're the same for both flowers (unlike in nature), I think they're just a standardized leaf shape, without other meaning. Best, F Attached Images

16th November 2008, 05:05 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	The border of 'petals'? is the same on both sides. The designs are crudely executed but quite complex. Excuse my scribbles, they do make the designs clearer than the photos do. I think it defiantely looks like a sunflower. Any thoughts as to why or when? Thanks Gene

17th November 2008, 07:25 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Atlantia, It's always fun trying to figure these things out. So far as the smaller design goes, I'm pretty sure that it's not the closed form of the big one. In general, the bud of the sunflower family looks something like an artichoke (not surprisingly, because artichokes are distant relatives of sunflowers), so that three-parted whatever-it-is is definitely not a closed sunflower. As for what it is, I've already made my guesses above. It would have been nice for it to have been an iris, because irises do show up in heraldry. One good example is the fleur-de-lys. That pattern really looks like the fruits of some members of the buttercup family, such as larkspurs or wolfsbane. These are semi-reasonable guesses, as the designer could easily find these fruits in a garden or a meadow near the shop. WHY someone sould choose such a pattern really puzzles me. Larkspurs and wolfsbane are fairly poisonous, so there might be some symbolism there. There might also be some family name association. Whatever it is, I'm currently puzzled. Feel free to keep bugging me about it. Perhaps the right question will shake loose a better answer. Best, F

18th November 2008, 09:32 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Atlantia, as Fearn has pointed out, the 'symbology' might indeed be similar to the serpentine bladed rapier. ".......Fleur-de-lys The French symbol of royalty to the far left is known as the Fleur-de-lys. It originated with the first of the Merovingian kings of France. This symbol comes out of Sumeria and is directly related to the Tree of Life. It can be traced all the way back to the Sumerian god Enki. In the image he is holding a pot of flowing waters with the symbol above it. This is also a maritime symbol which always indicates north. The next illustration is from Urartu which clearly shows the fluer attached to the fruit. Starting the next row is a Phoenician drawing of the Tree of Life. Notice the fluer at the center top. This is a style known as the vortical tree as is the following Assyrian tree. The final example of the fluer is from a piece of metal work from Urartu. It dons the helmet of a genii. The Fleur-de-lys has been so widely used that it is considered classical. Rosette Then we have the rosette. It too is a symbol connected to the Tree of Life. It has eight spoke-like leaves just like the symbol for the sun god Shamash. Standard rosette design with center dark pit to the far left. Next is Urartian metal work with a band of rosettes. The last image is from a Sumerian seal showing rosette's connection to the tree. This symbol is closely associated with the goddess Inanna and of course to the Tree of Life. This is a pan-Mesopotamian symbol....." The 8 petalled flower fits in with the rosette and the 3 'leaved' configuration seems to suggest the Fleur-de-lys. The above paragraphs and additional pictures (which are a little small but worth looking at) are here...approx. 1/3 page down http://firstlegend.info/3rivers/3rivervalley.html Kind Regards David

18th November 2008, 11:16 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi David, Another debate? Yes, I would be very happy if the small thing was a fleur-de-lys, aka an iris. That would solve a lot of problems, because it would be safely inside the symbol cannon of Europe. Thing is, the artist took some trouble to put details into the picture that made me decide it wasn't a fleur-de-lys. That leads to two possible conclusions: 1. It's not a fleur-de-lys, or 2. It is supposed to be a fleur-de-lys, but the artist was so clueless about what a fleur-de-lys represents (an iris flower, which has six visible parts) as a three parted whatzis with two leaves underneath. The second interpretation isn't impossible, as there are some fleur-de-lys images that could have been the model for this one. Basically, the artist may have wanted the fleur-de-lys to look "realistic," but lacking any knowledge of what the fleur-de-lys represented, he didn't raid his wife's flower garden for an iris flower, but scratched out this figure instead. It certainly happens, and I can think of a few Hollywood movie sets that were decorated with the same lack of attention to detail. Still, there is the possibility that the artist did know what he was trying to represent, in which case, it's not a fleur-de-lys, but something else. Fun! F

19th November 2008, 01:06 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Fearn, I agree with what you have said. However, you have previously stated that there are no 8 petaled flowers .... if it was a literal interpretation of a flower then it must be incorrect. Assuming that it was not a mistake then we could asume that the Fleur-de-lys is also not a 'literal' interpretation either. Irrespective of this ....why are two symbols associated with the tree of life, together on the cup It seems that this and the serpentine rapier display similar symbology ....coincidence Regards David