A cup hilted sword rapier for coments

[Gonzalo G]

A beauty. It remembers me the style of rapier Marc uses on his avatar. Yes, a portuguese model, but no security about where was it made. Just look at this entrance on the catalog in the Museo of Lázaro Galdiano:

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7414

does it recalls you something? Tough, the hilt is different.
Un abrazo

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Hi,

Gonzalo: Excellent detective work.

Fernando: Congratulations, a wonderful piece - I have been looking at that sword since it was put up for sale and was taken by it, especially its truly oversize cup hilt.

Here are three photos of broad bladed swords fitted with cup hilts. I believe that some of these were clearly military, from the 1600s on, towards the late 1700s.

We have to keep in mind, that before the adoption of regulation patterns towards the end of the 18th century, there was relatively little uniformity in side arms in most European armies and that anything could have seen service, whether from choice or necessity, as in the English Civil War when civilian rapiers were pressed into use Also, that many swords were re-hilted over the years and it can be a devilishly difficult task to assign a definite identity to some.

Cheers
Chris
Photos: Sala Antiguedades - Armas Antiguas

[fernando]

Hi Gonzalo,
Thans a lot for your words, the picture and the excelent link. I didn't even know about the existance of this museum. I will have to go through all 509 items relative to Armas y Armaduras.
You have surely noticed that there is a misspell in the legend the museum quotes to be engraved on that blade; they write VIVA EL REY DI PORTUGAL, whereas it should be DE. Maybe the misspell is not in their tag but on the blade itself; this sort of errors was often found on blade inscriptions, specialy if they were imported. Actualy Portugal could also be found written with a V instead of an U, which happens to be the case of my example; i only noticed that when i had a second look to the pictures, as the seller has wrongly spelled it with a U.

Saludos cordiales
Fernando

[fernando]

Hi Chris, thank you for your kind words.
So you were also watching this piece?! I thaught i had to make a quick decision, as usualy this type of swords gets acquired in no time, at least in this web site. Actualy the other day i saw one of this kind and when i contacted the guy to start negotiations, the sword was already sold ... this within a couple days. Amazingly it was a specimen similar to the one you are posting here in the first picture ... or even the very one ?!.
Thank you for the pictures of three examples of broad bladed swords. It might be that they were military ... or not. I humbly agree that the definition of such and such sword being civilian or military is not an easy task, even after regulation took place, to a certain extent. But naturaly things are taken by their generic, or majority, or statistic aproach, to allow for some points of reference. We all know that the rapier, having been conceived for civilian purposes, like (street) fencing and so, was also used by military; i have read that, for instance, they were used in India and thereabouts by Portuguese rank (noble) soldiers... often en suite with the left hand dagger. But coming to a general manner, military ordnance swords had a broader blade, less or no decoration, and knuckle bows fixed to the pommel, to increase their strenght in battle.
Within this reasoning, the sword in the third (last) picture might have belonged to some civilian aristocrat; could even be Portuguese, or for a Portuguese customer ... who knows ? Besides that fine decoration (and the loose knuckle bow), the legend engraved on the blade, PUGNO PRO PATRIA, was (at least also) often seen in Portuguese swords, in allegory to national independence achieved in 1640, after the Spanish Philips period domain.
Forgive me if i said too much nonsense; i was sort of think aloud .
Fernando

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

You did well to act decisively - It is a fine sword. I often look in there as he often gets some very nice pieces.

Whether rapiers did or did not find a military application has become a can of worms, principally because the term "rapier' is essentially and English one, dating back to Elizabethan times, used to designate a civilian mostly thrusting sword . To be sure, the term had distant counterparts on the continent, though as the sword historian Castle tells us, with very different connotations. But with the passage of time, by the 19th century it was applied by some, such as Burton, to any sharp thrusting sword suitable for fencing.

With the advent and spread of the historical European martial arts (HEMA) movement the term attained a kind of universality that wasn't there historically. As a result it is now very difficult to define the breed satisfactorily. This is compounded by that many military swords were fitted, often retro-fitted with the complex hilts commonly associated with civilian rapiers. It has been recorded that during the Napoleonic wars, British soldiers reported that the Spaniards were using rapiers, whereas in all probability what they saw were military broadswords fitted with cup hilts and variants thereof.

My own take on the matter is that the proper use of the term in the English language is the historical one, as used during the renaissance in England, and as such the weapon was totally unsuited for war, notwithstanding that occasionally it did find its way to the battlefields. just as in a later era the small sword did too, despite being equally unsuited. As for the cup hilt, from those photos that I provided, it would seem that they did find some favour with the military, probably on account of offering good protection to the hands. After all, during the 17th century complex hilted military swords were all the rage for that very reason, as exemplified by the sword of Gustavus Adolphus, so why not cup hilts further on?

As an aside, to my mind, much more problematic is the differentiation between the rapier proper and the later transition rapier, which IMO can only be done on the basis of function - And again this is the source of much confusion and never ending debate in some circles, as it impacts on the fence possible with the rapier proper.

Again congratulations and

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Hi Chris,
Thanks a lot for your coments (lecture), which i will not have the presumption (or the capacity) to counterpose .
I will just try and find the book i have read where the rapier was used by Portuguese in the discoveries period ... just to check what typology was it about.

... and thanks for your congratulations .
Fernando

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Whether rapiers did or did not find a military application has become a can of worms, principally because the term "rapier' is essentially and English one, dating back to Elizabethan times, used to designate a civilian mostly thrusting sword.

Chris, I did not made a detective work. I have all those entrances on my computer, as I use them to study the rapier and other swords. What it seems is a can of worms for some people, is the origin of the term "rapier", which is clearly from french origin. Oh, I know William the Conqueror and all the normans were french spoken, but that was five centures back. Neverthless, the world is full of personal certainties, as Fernando Pessoa, the great portuguese poet, once wrotte in a poem titled "Tabaquería":

Não, não creio em mim.
Em todos os manicômios há doidos malucos com tantas certezas!
Eu, que não tenho nenhuma certeza, sou mais certo ou menos
certo?

Is this HEMA movement another english invention? I don´t have many references about it.
Regards

Gonzalo

[celtan]

I though everyone knew that rapier, while being a french word, derives from "ropera", or "espada ropera"ie. Sword of Clothes.

The ropera was characterized by a flimsier, lighter and faster type of blade, catalogued as a estoque, or piercing blade. The kind of damage it caused was far more lethal, if much less ghastly in appearance than the slashing common to the purely military blade, although the latter was sturdier. The psychological effect of the slashing wounds caused by the military blades was nothing to be ignored, either.

M

BTW: Fernan's "entrances" comes from "entradas", or the data deposited in the CPU's memory to be used subsequently as needed...

BTW, Fernan

En este mundo traidor
Nada es verdad ni mentira
Todo depende del color
Del cristal con que se mira...

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Chris, I did not made a detective work. I have all those entrances on my computer, as I use them to study the rapier and other swords. What it seems is a can of worms for some people, is the origin of the term "rapier", which is clearly from french origin. Oh, I know William the Conqueror and all the normans were french spoken, but that was five centures back. Neverthless, the world is full of personal certainties, as Fernando Pessoa, the great portuguese poet, once wrotte in a poem titled "Tabaquería":



Não, não creio em mim.
Em todos os manicômios há doidos malucos com tantas certezas!
Eu, que não tenho nenhuma certeza, sou mais certo ou menos
certo?

Is this HEMA movement another english invention? I don´t have many references about it.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Chris, I did not made a detective work. I have all those entrances on my computer, as I use them to study the rapier and other swords.

I meant that as a sincere compliment and in the very best sense of the word (detective) as one who detects or investigates. I very much admire your systematic and comprehensive approach to hoplology, which sets an example to all of us - After all, providing that link to that sword, if I may say so, was akin to finding a needle in the proverbial haystack.

What it seems is a can of worms for some people, is the origin of the term "rapier", which is clearly from french origin.

Well, I am glad that you are clear about it - Can you provide some evidence for its Gaelic provenance?

For my part:

The term can have any number of origins, as is the case with many words. What is important is its unambiguous usage, and here we are doing so in English.

Castle, who in the opinion of many wrote the near definitive history of post medieval swordsmanship, a century ago, at least in the English language, argued convincingly, that in the late 1500s the French called their weapon the `espee', the English sword, but both, when referring to the Spaniard's sword called it a `rapier'. He went on to say that in France the word rapier soon became a term of contempt, signifying a sword of disproportionate length, the weapon of a bully. However, in England, ever since the adoption of the term, it always meant in his words "...a sword especially convenient for thrusting.." and went on to say that then it was synonymous with the Spanish thrusting sword, on account of the many dignitaries and officials of that nation who visited the royal court of the day. He further held that the then nearest French term for a thrusting sword was `estoc' which was Anglicized to `tucke' and variations thereof. In the English of bygone days, the terms `rapier' and `tucke' were at times used interchangeably when talking about thrusting swords.

Again, it is held by some that `rapier' was derived from the Spanish `espada ropera' (dress sword). The problem with this interpretation is that we are told that during the halcyon days of the rapier in Spain it was not used and in any event the expression `espada ropera' was already evident by the mid 1400s, well before the rapier made its appearance. The Spanish renaissance linguists that I consulted confirmed that this is probably right; So, to uphold this origin of `rapier', it is incumbent on those who propose it, to come forth with some period fencing manual, in which the expression is used as such.

Now, the reason that I made that reference to the can of worms is because over the years many, including curators, wrongly come to identify the rapier with its complex hilt, rather than function, which was determined by the blade and hilt, and such hilts were also fitted to the better military broadswords of that era.

Judging by your remarks, it would appear that the distinction is easy to make, but to do so, you'll have to define what a rapier is to the satisfaction of the majority, which I can assure you is no easy task. However, until something better comes along I shall adhere to the old English usage of the word, and where this does not suffice, by function, otherwise we open the doors to endless confusion and needless debate.

Is this HEMA movement another english invention? I don´t have many references about it.

Another? Well, besides the industrial revolution..... No, just kidding.

BTW. At the end of the 19th century in England there was a resurgence of interest in old sword play, and Egerton Castle, Alfred Hutton and Richard Burton formed a trio of gentleman fencer/scholars who studied the older weapons, but this gradually lost momentum, though not before writing some excellent works on the subject - With the advent of the SCA (see link below) there was a resurgence of interest in the old ways, including earlier swordsmanship, and later a more serious movement emerged, that of the study of Historical European Martial Arts, HEMA in short. My perception is that despite having an international following, it was and remains a US driven activity - Their exponents mostly focus on medieval and renaissance sword arts and try to reconstruct the relevant techniques from the old surviving manuals - In so doing, much new valuable material emerged, but also many contentious issues, along with considerable historical revisionism of dubious validity, much of which have muddied the waters for us collectors.

For the origins of the SCA search in Google, or see http://history.westkingdom.org/Year0/index.htm

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gonzalo,
Thans a lot for your words, the picture and the excelent link. I didn't even know about the existance of this museum. I will have to go through all 509 items relative to Armas y Armaduras.
You have surely noticed that there is a misspell in the legend the museum quotes to be engraved on that blade; they write VIVA EL REY DI PORTUGAL, whereas it should be DE. Maybe the misspell is not in their tag but on the blade itself; this sort of errors was often found on blade inscriptions, specialy if they were imported. Actualy Portugal could also be found written with a V instead of an U, which happens to be the case of my example; i only noticed that when i had a second look to the pictures, as the seller has wrongly spelled it with a U.

Saludos cordiales
Fernando

Well Fernando, you are aware that the use of the V instead an U was common on the old writting. You can find this feature on many antique manuscripts. But it is true what you say, also. Yes, I noticed the i in di, as in italian, but you can writte to Beraiz to find out. Maybe you can find his email adress on Gladius web page. He is a very accessible person. And for the museum: you know, I´m very far from Europe, and in any case from any rapier, so I must search. I´m glad the link opened a new avenue for you.
Un abrazo

Gonzalo