A cup hilted sword rapier for coments

[fernando]

Hi Gene

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Its a fabulous sword Fernando,
And a four posted grip like my rapier! Length seems fine to me, great condition!
I'd have placed it a little earlier than 1700! Its certainly another fine beauty for your collection! ...

Thank you so much for your impressions .

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... Have you won the lottery recently? ;-)

Shhhhhut. My wife doesn't even dream i went into this adventure .

Fernando

[fernando]

Hi Jim, thank you my friend,
As allways, a treatise on the weapon focused on the topic.
Do i well understand your words when you say that Norman is not aware of cuphilts being used by military ? If so, that would be a bit confusing to me .
I would like to quote a Portuguese specialist, Eduardo Nobre, who mentions is has made a comparison study on several hundred cuphilted swords, both in public as in private collections, having concluded that the fixation of the knuckleguard to the pommel, was more common in military swords. In the case of cuphilted swords with a narrow blade, the so called rapiers, this fixation was rather unvulgar, as even in some cases, resulted from later adaptations.
Also in my humble conclusion, despite this sword has a very plain aspect, its blade length and narrowness, apart from the knucklebow fixation problematic, indicates that this is certainly a civilian sword, a rapier designed for fencing.
I am still expecting the seller to explain his point of view on what concerns this being a Portuguese or a Spanish production sword. If it were made in an earlier period, it could easy be Spanish or in the least be called a Peninsular sword, for what matters. However having been made after the 1640 revolution, and with that kind of nationalist inscription on the balde, it has serious possibilities of being indeed Portuguese. But the seller is surely more qualified in these things than me, so let's see what the man says.
I also wish Marc came around, to drop a line on this subject .
Fernando

[Gonzalo G]

A beauty. It remembers me the style of rapier Marc uses on his avatar. Yes, a portuguese model, but no security about where was it made. Just look at this entrance on the catalog in the Museo of Lázaro Galdiano:

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7414

does it recalls you something? Tough, the hilt is different.
Un abrazo

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Hi,

Gonzalo: Excellent detective work.

Fernando: Congratulations, a wonderful piece - I have been looking at that sword since it was put up for sale and was taken by it, especially its truly oversize cup hilt.

Here are three photos of broad bladed swords fitted with cup hilts. I believe that some of these were clearly military, from the 1600s on, towards the late 1700s.

We have to keep in mind, that before the adoption of regulation patterns towards the end of the 18th century, there was relatively little uniformity in side arms in most European armies and that anything could have seen service, whether from choice or necessity, as in the English Civil War when civilian rapiers were pressed into use Also, that many swords were re-hilted over the years and it can be a devilishly difficult task to assign a definite identity to some.

Cheers
Chris
Photos: Sala Antiguedades - Armas Antiguas

[fernando]

Hi Gonzalo,
Thans a lot for your words, the picture and the excelent link. I didn't even know about the existance of this museum. I will have to go through all 509 items relative to Armas y Armaduras.
You have surely noticed that there is a misspell in the legend the museum quotes to be engraved on that blade; they write VIVA EL REY DI PORTUGAL, whereas it should be DE. Maybe the misspell is not in their tag but on the blade itself; this sort of errors was often found on blade inscriptions, specialy if they were imported. Actualy Portugal could also be found written with a V instead of an U, which happens to be the case of my example; i only noticed that when i had a second look to the pictures, as the seller has wrongly spelled it with a U.

Saludos cordiales
Fernando

[fernando]

Hi Chris, thank you for your kind words.
So you were also watching this piece?! I thaught i had to make a quick decision, as usualy this type of swords gets acquired in no time, at least in this web site. Actualy the other day i saw one of this kind and when i contacted the guy to start negotiations, the sword was already sold ... this within a couple days. Amazingly it was a specimen similar to the one you are posting here in the first picture ... or even the very one ?!.
Thank you for the pictures of three examples of broad bladed swords. It might be that they were military ... or not. I humbly agree that the definition of such and such sword being civilian or military is not an easy task, even after regulation took place, to a certain extent. But naturaly things are taken by their generic, or majority, or statistic aproach, to allow for some points of reference. We all know that the rapier, having been conceived for civilian purposes, like (street) fencing and so, was also used by military; i have read that, for instance, they were used in India and thereabouts by Portuguese rank (noble) soldiers... often en suite with the left hand dagger. But coming to a general manner, military ordnance swords had a broader blade, less or no decoration, and knuckle bows fixed to the pommel, to increase their strenght in battle.
Within this reasoning, the sword in the third (last) picture might have belonged to some civilian aristocrat; could even be Portuguese, or for a Portuguese customer ... who knows ? Besides that fine decoration (and the loose knuckle bow), the legend engraved on the blade, PUGNO PRO PATRIA, was (at least also) often seen in Portuguese swords, in allegory to national independence achieved in 1640, after the Spanish Philips period domain.
Forgive me if i said too much nonsense; i was sort of think aloud .
Fernando

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

You did well to act decisively - It is a fine sword. I often look in there as he often gets some very nice pieces.

Whether rapiers did or did not find a military application has become a can of worms, principally because the term "rapier' is essentially and English one, dating back to Elizabethan times, used to designate a civilian mostly thrusting sword . To be sure, the term had distant counterparts on the continent, though as the sword historian Castle tells us, with very different connotations. But with the passage of time, by the 19th century it was applied by some, such as Burton, to any sharp thrusting sword suitable for fencing.

With the advent and spread of the historical European martial arts (HEMA) movement the term attained a kind of universality that wasn't there historically. As a result it is now very difficult to define the breed satisfactorily. This is compounded by that many military swords were fitted, often retro-fitted with the complex hilts commonly associated with civilian rapiers. It has been recorded that during the Napoleonic wars, British soldiers reported that the Spaniards were using rapiers, whereas in all probability what they saw were military broadswords fitted with cup hilts and variants thereof.

My own take on the matter is that the proper use of the term in the English language is the historical one, as used during the renaissance in England, and as such the weapon was totally unsuited for war, notwithstanding that occasionally it did find its way to the battlefields. just as in a later era the small sword did too, despite being equally unsuited. As for the cup hilt, from those photos that I provided, it would seem that they did find some favour with the military, probably on account of offering good protection to the hands. After all, during the 17th century complex hilted military swords were all the rage for that very reason, as exemplified by the sword of Gustavus Adolphus, so why not cup hilts further on?

As an aside, to my mind, much more problematic is the differentiation between the rapier proper and the later transition rapier, which IMO can only be done on the basis of function - And again this is the source of much confusion and never ending debate in some circles, as it impacts on the fence possible with the rapier proper.

Again congratulations and

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gonzalo,
Thans a lot for your words, the picture and the excelent link. I didn't even know about the existance of this museum. I will have to go through all 509 items relative to Armas y Armaduras.
You have surely noticed that there is a misspell in the legend the museum quotes to be engraved on that blade; they write VIVA EL REY DI PORTUGAL, whereas it should be DE. Maybe the misspell is not in their tag but on the blade itself; this sort of errors was often found on blade inscriptions, specialy if they were imported. Actualy Portugal could also be found written with a V instead of an U, which happens to be the case of my example; i only noticed that when i had a second look to the pictures, as the seller has wrongly spelled it with a U.

Saludos cordiales
Fernando

Well Fernando, you are aware that the use of the V instead an U was common on the old writting. You can find this feature on many antique manuscripts. But it is true what you say, also. Yes, I noticed the i in di, as in italian, but you can writte to Beraiz to find out. Maybe you can find his email adress on Gladius web page. He is a very accessible person. And for the museum: you know, I´m very far from Europe, and in any case from any rapier, so I must search. I´m glad the link opened a new avenue for you.
Un abrazo

Gonzalo