Gold hilted yataghan

Yannis · 11th December 2004, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

http://www.pbase.com/erlikhan2/inbox
Pictures of the gold engraved metal(iron or steel) hilted yataghan i have. Somebody told that this metal hilt type was used by Levends.(Naval soldiers and officers in Ottoman Turkey). As the sea was salty and humid, horn and ivory was getting deformed and damaged in short time. That was why metal was preferred. Can this be correct?

I cant say about materials and the sea. But this yataghan have small ears and I have read once that sailors prefered them, because they didnt mess with the ropes on the boat.

BTW, the word "Levend" is in use in greek language too. It comes from medevial italian words "Leventi" (sailor from the east) > "Levante" (east).

Jim McDougall · 14th December 2004, 04:25 AM

This is a most interesting topic concerning yataghans, which is a sword form whose variation and specific ancestry is often the subject of debate. It seems over the years there have been a number of vague references to 'naval yataghans' but none seem to have definition or corroborated support.
It would be surprising to discover a specific form designated or favored by the Ottoman navy and it would be interesting to see examples of yataghans with naval provenance. While practical perspective is considered for the materials of weapons used at sea, it would seem plausible that negative effects might effect choices, but not necessarily. The dress weapons for officers would reflect decorative fashion popular at the time, and with the elaborate costume of the Ottomans, practical austerity would be unlikely.
As for the sailors , "...galley sailors called levants were recruited from coastal Turks, Greeks, Albanians, Dalmatians and North Africans" (" Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774" Dr. David Nicolle, Osprey, p.25).
This would suggest these 'levants' *might have carried all manner of personal weapons from thier own homelands.
The Ottoman naval officers may have carried 'fighting' weapons of equally wide range, depending on personal choice or availability of local forms. These certainly would have included yataghans, less lavishly decorated.

* the most familar use of the term Levant is of course to the eastern shores of the Meditteranean and Aegean, esp. Syria, Lebanon and Israel.

Best regards,
Jim

erlikhan · 14th December 2004, 09:31 PM

Thank you all for joining the discussion. The sword was once more beautiful i guess, with all gold inscriptions on the hilt which are now quite warn off due to handling a lot.
Iron would corrode in ocean environment, thats correct. Then perhaps the purpose of iron preference is something different. Maybe the ease of applying koftgari onto iron. It cant be done onto ivory. What I know, is that there is no similar sample among 50-60 yataghans in the military museum.
The word levent definitely is not Turkish. Sounds from the same origin with the word "levantin", which certainly comes from French word "lever" which means "the rise of sun" describing eastern Mediterennean. (I dont know French, anybody please correct it if it is wrong).

eftihis · 14th December 2004, 11:23 PM

This is a very interesting topic!
I was always confused by the term "nautical yataghan". The reason is that i know 2 types of yataghans with that name. The first is the one in the photo below (from Greek war museum). The hilt somehow reminds the karabela hilt, but the blade is classic yataghan. I have heard that they used this to avoid interfearing of the big ears of classical yataghans with the ropes and the small areas of the ships.
But i have seen described also as "nautical" all the silver yataghans that have small ears like exactly the one that Erlikhan has. These yataghans have usually a ship carved in the scabbard, among the other designs.

Furthermore, yataghans that were made in Crete (at least their silver work was made in Crete) have all small ears like the "nautical" and the one of Erlikhan.
Anybody can help?

erlikhan · 14th December 2004, 11:44 PM

Eftihis, the one in your picture is very interesting. Like half breed of different animals. But i guess its long cross guard should interfere with ropes too, if there was such a problem in ships. The scabbard of my sample has definite traces of some mounting which has gone long time ago. Now only leather left. Then perhaps mine once had mountings with ship engraving too.
Is that museum in Crete? Do they have ancient Greek bronze and iron swords? If so can you post their pictures or if you can't do that, at least describe what they are like?

eftihis · 15th December 2004, 12:38 AM

These are photos from a "nautical" yataghan which is from Crete.
You can see the ship design on the scabbard.
I dont have photos from ancient Greek swords. The previous one is from Greek war museum in Athens.

erlikhan · 15th December 2004, 11:49 PM

Amazing. Had you seen my naval yataghan's pictures in the previous forum?
http://www.pbase.com/erlikhan/yataghan . Yours is too similar in all aspects.
It was told to me as being officialy ordered to workshops and manufactured to present to the highest rank naval officers. It is highest grade silver, and it had to be so, to be able to create the magnificent work without tearing the silver sheet. And it doesn't have any tughra. Market productions which were produced for civilian customers were stamped with "tughra" sign, which was mint stamped officialy just to approve the degree of the silver after testing them. That was the way to convince customers and gain their trust. Official orders never carry "tughra", as the government didn't need to convince its officers or ministers that they were not cheated by the government itself normally.

14th December 2004, 11:23 PM	#4
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	Nautical yataghan This is a very interesting topic! I was always confused by the term "nautical yataghan". The reason is that i know 2 types of yataghans with that name. The first is the one in the photo below (from Greek war museum). The hilt somehow reminds the karabela hilt, but the blade is classic yataghan. I have heard that they used this to avoid interfearing of the big ears of classical yataghans with the ropes and the small areas of the ships. But i have seen described also as "nautical" all the silver yataghans that have small ears like exactly the one that Erlikhan has. These yataghans have usually a ship carved in the scabbard, among the other designs. Furthermore, yataghans that were made in Crete (at least their silver work was made in Crete) have all small ears like the "nautical" and the one of Erlikhan. Anybody can help? Attached Images

15th December 2004, 12:38 AM	#6
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	Silver Nautical yataghan from Crete These are photos from a "nautical" yataghan which is from Crete. You can see the ship design on the scabbard. I dont have photos from ancient Greek swords. The previous one is from Greek war museum in Athens. Attached Images

14th December 2004, 04:25 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,474	This is a most interesting topic concerning yataghans, which is a sword form whose variation and specific ancestry is often the subject of debate. It seems over the years there have been a number of vague references to 'naval yataghans' but none seem to have definition or corroborated support. It would be surprising to discover a specific form designated or favored by the Ottoman navy and it would be interesting to see examples of yataghans with naval provenance. While practical perspective is considered for the materials of weapons used at sea, it would seem plausible that negative effects might effect choices, but not necessarily. The dress weapons for officers would reflect decorative fashion popular at the time, and with the elaborate costume of the Ottomans, practical austerity would be unlikely. As for the sailors , "...galley sailors called levants were recruited from coastal Turks, Greeks, Albanians, Dalmatians and North Africans" (" Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774" Dr. David Nicolle, Osprey, p.25). This would suggest these 'levants' might have carried all manner of personal weapons from thier own homelands. The Ottoman naval officers may have carried 'fighting' weapons of equally wide range, depending on personal choice or availability of local forms. These certainly would have included yataghans, less lavishly decorated. the most familar use of the term Levant is of course to the eastern shores of the Meditteranean and Aegean, esp. Syria, Lebanon and Israel. Best regards, Jim

14th December 2004, 09:31 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Thank you all for joining the discussion. The sword was once more beautiful i guess, with all gold inscriptions on the hilt which are now quite warn off due to handling a lot. Iron would corrode in ocean environment, thats correct. Then perhaps the purpose of iron preference is something different. Maybe the ease of applying koftgari onto iron. It cant be done onto ivory. What I know, is that there is no similar sample among 50-60 yataghans in the military museum. The word levent definitely is not Turkish. Sounds from the same origin with the word "levantin", which certainly comes from French word "lever" which means "the rise of sun" describing eastern Mediterennean. (I dont know French, anybody please correct it if it is wrong).

14th December 2004, 11:44 PM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Eftihis, the one in your picture is very interesting. Like half breed of different animals. But i guess its long cross guard should interfere with ropes too, if there was such a problem in ships. The scabbard of my sample has definite traces of some mounting which has gone long time ago. Now only leather left. Then perhaps mine once had mountings with ship engraving too. Is that museum in Crete? Do they have ancient Greek bronze and iron swords? If so can you post their pictures or if you can't do that, at least describe what they are like?

15th December 2004, 11:49 PM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Amazing. Had you seen my naval yataghan's pictures in the previous forum? http://www.pbase.com/erlikhan/yataghan . Yours is too similar in all aspects. It was told to me as being officialy ordered to workshops and manufactured to present to the highest rank naval officers. It is highest grade silver, and it had to be so, to be able to create the magnificent work without tearing the silver sheet. And it doesn't have any tughra. Market productions which were produced for civilian customers were stamped with "tughra" sign, which was mint stamped officialy just to approve the degree of the silver after testing them. That was the way to convince customers and gain their trust. Official orders never carry "tughra", as the government didn't need to convince its officers or ministers that they were not cheated by the government itself normally.