Preservation of Craftsmanship at National Level

[Antonio Cejunior]

Gentlemen,

I feel so happy to be in this Forum.
You all are wonderful people each one very unique.

I threw in this theme and have been following it as close as possible. Not intervening is not lack of interest but viewing and thinking.

I would think that on such topics there are the first issues that are what we call in Portuguese as breaking the stone, which is brainstorming.

Then I guess we should go into analysing the issues, which is actually putting forth different scenarios with different measures as much as possible native to the context.

Later it would be time to sumarize everything by discussing how to come up with ideas for measures or just simply conclude there are no measures to be taken...

Shall we proceed?
Thank you all.

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

Then I guess we should go into analysing the issues, which is actually putting forth different scenarios with different measures as much as possible native to the context

Thank you all.

This is similar to Ariel's concern about the Chinese making reproduction swords from other cultures, yes? To me, in a way, it's no big deal, because I am interested in swords; and it is not oldness or some impossible ideal of cultural purity, BTW, that defines a real sword, but whether it is a real sword for really using as a sword. I've seen some real crap out of China, but then I've seen quite a lot of good metalwork, too, and I've seen crap from almost everywhere (Germany, believe it or not). Of course, what is a real cultural object is a quite seperable matter. Viewed from the perspective of the sword as a living art form, the problems of removing styles from their native cultures and of mass production are huge, but we're fighting the whole drive of the overculture to internationalize, to economize, and to standardize everything. It's a steep wall to climb there; I climb it in my own way; I salute you for standing at the bottom of it and trying to figure out where you're gonna grab on.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

This is similar to Ariel's concern about the Chinese making reproduction swords from other cultures, yes? To me, in a way, it's no big deal, because I am interested in swords; and it is not oldness or some impossible ideal of cultural purity, BTW, that defines a real sword, but whether it is a real sword for really using as a sword. I've seen some real crap out of China, but then I've seen quite a lot of good metalwork, too, and I've seen crap from almost everywhere (Germany, believe it or not). Of course, what is a real cultural object is a quite seperable matter. Viewed from the perspective of the sword as a living art form, the problems of removing styles from their native cultures and of mass production are huge, but we're fighting the whole drive of the overculture to internationalize, to economize, and to standardize everything. It's a steep wall to climb there; I climb it in my own way; I salute you for standing at the bottom of it and trying to figure out where you're gonna grab on.

Hi Tom,
Actually I am convinced that the region of Long Quan was the craddle to Chinese steel swords.
It would be of great interest to study Chinese swords, not in books but in physical terms, for the jia-gang (sandwiched steel) and other forms existed in China.
Why it has not been kept so alive is something I am still to understand in depth.
However I may found a natural-cultural reason. The Chinese were not expansionists by nature.Their concept of Zhong Guo (The Middle Kingdom) was much more important. Only the Yuan Dynasty and Qin (Ching) Dynasty were respectively Mongol and Manchu, perhaps a reason that the self enclosure did not rely on any paramount legend about the sword.
Overculture, on another aspect of your post, seems to be unstoppable. Uniformization is the word of the day which carries benefits, if we see it as a way (not being carried out) to redistribute wealth to the less developped countries (which is more utopic then doable in a willing way).
But it does have these lost things. The issue in the end is that the overculture is so full of its political righteousness that it is like a tsunami...

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

Gentlemen,

I feel so happy to be in this Forum.
You all are wonderful people each one very unique.

I threw in this theme and have been following it as close as possible. Not intervening is not lack of interest but viewing and thinking.

I would think that on such topics there are the first issues that are what we call in Portuguese as breaking the stone, which is brainstorming.

Then I guess we should go into analysing the issues, which is actually putting forth different scenarios with different measures as much as possible native to the context.

Later it would be time to sumarize everything by discussing how to come up with ideas for measures or just simply conclude there are no measures to be taken...

Shall we proceed?
Thank you all.

Hi Antonio , I think in the case of the S.Philippines we can have no real resurgence until some sort of a solution has been reached in the Christian/Muslim question . I truly fear for the future of my beloved Moro weapons .

[Mark]

I was searching posts on the old forum and re-discovered Dan's post about his visit to Lung Som in Aranyik. Among other things, Dan writes:

Lung Som is 57 now and a 4th generation sword maker. He pretty much owns the entire village there in Aranyik but he still gets his hands dirty on a regular basis. As a young man he was given a royal commission and when he presented the sword to the king, the king gave him a mandate to keep traditional sword making alive in Thailand. He has made several swords for the royal family and has the pictures to prove it throughout his shop.

So at least Lung Som's shop is working to preserve the Thai swordmaking traditions, under royal patronage. Perhaps this sort of trend will spread, even in non-monarchial countries.

The full thread is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002324.html

[Rivkin]

I'm sorry for being a little bit overly pessimistic about ship modeling - I'm sure it's alive, just like sword making in America is also quite alive. And most likely the needed for personal interaction with a master/good marketing will prevent complete outsourcing of this and sword making industries.

However the market share did move and does move drastically from individually hand made items to the semi-mass produced ones, leaving very few in the business.

Concerning the anti-sword attitudes - I believe the sheer number of "samurai swords" sold every year is enough to recreate Sekigahara. Under every tree you can find a sensei teaching secrets of ninjutsu.

Does it transform into buying traditionally made swords ? Hell no.
At best it goes to Paul Chen and his cuties.

The reasons in my opinion are as follows:
a. There is no need for expensive real thing when something mass produced cuts (not exactly as well as the real thing).
b. With a mass produced thing you get a sword stand, cool dragon on your tsuka, and the certificate that tells you that this is a Masamune's sword.
c. Modern traditionally made swords are very often worse in quality than similarly priced antique swords.

In short, we are all going Kubachi's road - bad blades in all silver scabbards.

[Rick]

Oh I agree Rivkin , the average consumer cannot afford the masterpieces so they settle for something that looks good at an affordable price .
I think though that this is nothing new in the art and craft world .

It has always been the wealthy patron that has kept the best of anything alive be it food , art , yachts or automobiles .

I'm not sure if I am drifting away from Antonio's original question here ,(probably am )

[Battara]

But Rick, I think you have a point (besides the one on your head ). It has been wealthy patrons who commissioned works of weapory art, most being court nobility. In today's world, outside of government, it will be the same like it is with custom knife making here in the US (as had been previously mentioned).

[Rick]

I think the Chinese government has many bigger and more important fish to fry at this point in their existence .

I also remember that this culture once had great fleets of treasure ships and then abruptly ended the venture .
Didn't they also invent the clock and then abandon its use at one point in history ?

I would not be surprised that when they get their ducks more in a row that they will turn more and more to encouraging traditional artisans .

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

I was searching posts on the old forum and re-discovered Dan's post about his visit to Lung Som in Aranyik. Among other things, Dan writes:



So at least Lung Som's shop is working to preserve the Thai swordmaking traditions, under royal patronage. Perhaps this sort of trend will spread, even in non-monarchial countries.

The full thread is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002324.html

Thanks for the link Mark
If you didn't revive it, I wouldn't ever be able to view it.

Lung Som may have the commercial side to support his other artistic lines.
But the fact was that my own reaction when I was there was that I found the bowies to be too expensive and ended up feeling a bit awkward for not seeing only dhas. I could understand the commercial part, but I don't know, I wasn't convinced. But maybe I'm too picky.

In was wondering how are those swords that Dan ordered. Not long ago, Dan still mentioned he had not received anything.

This is the part that can scare away customers, for Asia is known to usually be very fast at doing things.

Cheers

[Antonio Cejunior]

Dear All,

I hope I am not committing a sin here, but based on this post I have started a thread about Bladesmiths: what future today and tomorrow
I thought that many of you gentlemen could provide a further input.

Dear Moderators, I'm in no way trying to fish anyone from this wonderful forum, but really hoping to see more inputs. However if you feel I am breaking any rule, please kindly delete this post.

Thank you

[Rick]

Not a problem Antonio ; many of the fish here swim in both waters .

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Rick

Not a problem Antonio ; many of the fish here swim in both waters .

Thanks Rick,

It is a new pond

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Antonio , I think in the case of the S.Philippines we can have no real resurgence until some sort of a solution has been reached in the Christian/Muslim question . I truly fear for the future of my beloved Moro weapons .

Hi Rick,

I fully understand. I myself love those moro keris.
Let us hope positions do not get more intransigent.
Peace should be the most easy thing in the world to achieve.