Strange flamboyant blade rapier on ebay

Rick · 12th November 2008, 06:04 PM

Thanks Norman .
Will all please consider the size of the blade Norman has shown; please tell me that it is lighter than the serpentine blade under discussion .

katana · 12th November 2008, 07:35 PM

Thanks Norman

,

Stylistically both pommels look almost the same .... still wondering whether they are just 'decorated' acorn pommels that do not represent anything specific.
Mid 16th C ...it would be nice to find other swords of the period, with the same pommel ...

The history of the pineapple is interesting though.....

"......Spaniards introduced the pineapple into the Philippines and may have taken it to Hawaii and Guam early in the 16th Century. The first sizeable plantation 5 acres (2 ha)—was established in Oahu in 1885. Portuguese traders are said to have taken seeds to India from the Moluccas in 1548, and they also introduced the pineapple to the east and west coasts of Africa. The plant was growing in China in 1594 and in South Africa about 1655. It reached Europe in 1650 and fruits were being produced in Holland in 1686 but trials in England were not success ful until 1712. Greenhouse culture flourished in England and France in the late 1700's. Captain Cook planted pineapples on the Society Islands, Friendly Islands and elsewhere in the South Pacific in 1777........"

Fearn.....apparently the 'pineapple' was coined by the English because it looked like a pine cone that grew in trees (actually technically a bush) like an apple. Bearing in mind alot of Europeans would not have seen one ...it would make sense that a 'pine cone' topped with apple leaves would become the accepted 'image'.

Regards David

.

fearn · 12th November 2008, 11:05 PM

Hi David,

Thanks for reminding me about the origin of the pineapple. Since we're on word origins, I'd also point out that the term pommel originated with pomme, which is, of course, an apple. I'm not sure whether older round pommels were meant to represent apples or pomegranates (latin for "seeded apple"), but that only points out that swordsmiths don't often make botanically accurate pommels, unless they have a reason.

That's the question here, though, is whether there's a reason for the design of this sword. As you indirectly pointed out, that reason can be tied up with the age of the blade.

In a 16th century pineapple pommel (if such a thing existed), the fruit would symbolize exoticism and the New World, and would probably be Spanish. If we assume that this is from the 18th or 19th Century, the pineapple might symbolize wealth, as in "I'm wealthy enough to finance a hothouse that lets me grow my own pineapples." In that case, the blade would be northern European. The pineapple also retains its air of tropical exoticism, but it's really a symbol of wealth.

We can look at some other pommels. For instance, an acorn pommel may simply be there as a skull crusher. Alternatively, if the acorn pommel is realistic, we might legitimately expect the piece to be a hunting sword. I'm not sure if there is a reason to have a pinecone on a sword, let alone a strawberry. When I thought about a raspberry, the image of Sir Framboise got me giggling, and I haven't pursued that line...

Personally, I still think it's supposed to be a pineapple. Unless Jim speaks up again and lets us know what type of fruit the freemasons think grows on the Tree of Knowledge that the flaming sword should guard... Then we might have something else to discuss.

Best,
F

12th November 2008, 07:35 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thanks Norman , Stylistically both pommels look almost the same .... still wondering whether they are just 'decorated' acorn pommels that do not represent anything specific. Mid 16th C ...it would be nice to find other swords of the period, with the same pommel ... The history of the pineapple is interesting though..... "......Spaniards introduced the pineapple into the Philippines and may have taken it to Hawaii and Guam early in the 16th Century. The first sizeable plantation 5 acres (2 ha)—was established in Oahu in 1885. Portuguese traders are said to have taken seeds to India from the Moluccas in 1548, and they also introduced the pineapple to the east and west coasts of Africa. The plant was growing in China in 1594 and in South Africa about 1655. It reached Europe in 1650 and fruits were being produced in Holland in 1686 but trials in England were not success ful until 1712. Greenhouse culture flourished in England and France in the late 1700's. Captain Cook planted pineapples on the Society Islands, Friendly Islands and elsewhere in the South Pacific in 1777........" Fearn.....apparently the 'pineapple' was coined by the English because it looked like a pine cone that grew in trees (actually technically a bush) like an apple. Bearing in mind alot of Europeans would not have seen one ...it would make sense that a 'pine cone' topped with apple leaves would become the accepted 'image'. Regards David . Attached Images Last edited by katana; 12th November 2008 at 08:15 PM.

12th November 2008, 06:04 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Thanks Norman . Will all please consider the size of the blade Norman has shown; please tell me that it is lighter than the serpentine blade under discussion .

12th November 2008, 11:05 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi David, Thanks for reminding me about the origin of the pineapple. Since we're on word origins, I'd also point out that the term pommel originated with pomme, which is, of course, an apple. I'm not sure whether older round pommels were meant to represent apples or pomegranates (latin for "seeded apple"), but that only points out that swordsmiths don't often make botanically accurate pommels, unless they have a reason. That's the question here, though, is whether there's a reason for the design of this sword. As you indirectly pointed out, that reason can be tied up with the age of the blade. In a 16th century pineapple pommel (if such a thing existed), the fruit would symbolize exoticism and the New World, and would probably be Spanish. If we assume that this is from the 18th or 19th Century, the pineapple might symbolize wealth, as in "I'm wealthy enough to finance a hothouse that lets me grow my own pineapples." In that case, the blade would be northern European. The pineapple also retains its air of tropical exoticism, but it's really a symbol of wealth. We can look at some other pommels. For instance, an acorn pommel may simply be there as a skull crusher. Alternatively, if the acorn pommel is realistic, we might legitimately expect the piece to be a hunting sword. I'm not sure if there is a reason to have a pinecone on a sword, let alone a strawberry. When I thought about a raspberry, the image of Sir Framboise got me giggling, and I haven't pursued that line... Personally, I still think it's supposed to be a pineapple. Unless Jim speaks up again and lets us know what type of fruit the freemasons think grows on the Tree of Knowledge that the flaming sword should guard... Then we might have something else to discuss. Best, F