Strange flamboyant blade rapier on ebay

Jim McDougall · 11th November 2008, 08:23 PM

David, absolutely outstanding points, and well taken! It does make absolute sense that this might have something to do with the Portuguese in India, where serpentine blades with nagan symbolism were quite present. I had been wondering about those cross piercings, which are distinctly of Portuguese fashion and seen on late 16th century swords (of the type of rapier which became copied in Africa's Congo , as seen in Burton).

This rapier has been really puzzling, and while the Masonic possibility presented a rather intriguing and mysterious potential, I still hoped to find more true weapon vintage with it. With your true forensically astute eye, you have found what appears to be 'the smoking element'!! in the hilt. That repair I had not noticed.

Your observations on the combat potential of this weapon are well stated and thought out, and do offer compelling consideration that I also had not thought of.

Rick, your also well placed note on the swept upward asymmetric side of the hilt is very reminiscent of the keris, and adds to the potential for this piece having East Indies provenance as we are observing.

Returning to the Masonic perspective, the only element of this sword that remains curiously non-East Indies or Portuguese in India, is the pineapple pommel, which seems a distinctly 18th century European affectation, as Fearn has noted. I am not aware of the pineapple used as decorative motif on weapons of India, Indonesia or Portugal for that matter, and perhaps evidence of that feature might lend more to better securing possible provenance of this sword.

The game remains afoot gentlemen!!!
Excellent detection and discussion

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 11th November 2008, 08:42 PM

I wonder if this blade was possibly made by an Indonesian smith rather than European . I think I'm looking at a nice distal taper, and the curves evoke a really native approach .

Portugese steel meets Indonesian smith ?

Somebody throw a net over me, please !

Atlantia · 11th November 2008, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if this blade was possibly made by an Indonesian smith rather than European . I think I'm looking at a nice distal taper, and the curves evoke a really native approach .

Portugese steel meets Indonesian smith ?

Somebody throw a net over me, please !

You're just itching to etch it aren't you Rick? ;-)

Rick · 11th November 2008, 08:55 PM

Fall of Malacca to the Portuguese, 1511 ...

Staining ??

Nah, I suspect that if a Portuguese comissioned a sword from a local smith he would have given him superior European steel to work with; not that local crap what passes for metal .

11th November 2008, 08:23 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	David, absolutely outstanding points, and well taken! It does make absolute sense that this might have something to do with the Portuguese in India, where serpentine blades with nagan symbolism were quite present. I had been wondering about those cross piercings, which are distinctly of Portuguese fashion and seen on late 16th century swords (of the type of rapier which became copied in Africa's Congo , as seen in Burton). This rapier has been really puzzling, and while the Masonic possibility presented a rather intriguing and mysterious potential, I still hoped to find more true weapon vintage with it. With your true forensically astute eye, you have found what appears to be 'the smoking element'!! in the hilt. That repair I had not noticed. Your observations on the combat potential of this weapon are well stated and thought out, and do offer compelling consideration that I also had not thought of. Rick, your also well placed note on the swept upward asymmetric side of the hilt is very reminiscent of the keris, and adds to the potential for this piece having East Indies provenance as we are observing. Returning to the Masonic perspective, the only element of this sword that remains curiously non-East Indies or Portuguese in India, is the pineapple pommel, which seems a distinctly 18th century European affectation, as Fearn has noted. I am not aware of the pineapple used as decorative motif on weapons of India, Indonesia or Portugal for that matter, and perhaps evidence of that feature might lend more to better securing possible provenance of this sword. The game remains afoot gentlemen!!! Excellent detection and discussion All the best, Jim

11th November 2008, 08:42 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	I wonder if this blade was possibly made by an Indonesian smith rather than European . I think I'm looking at a nice distal taper, and the curves evoke a really native approach . Portugese steel meets Indonesian smith ? Somebody throw a net over me, please !

11th November 2008, 08:55 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Fall of Malacca to the Portuguese, 1511 ... Staining ?? Nah, I suspect that if a Portuguese comissioned a sword from a local smith he would have given him superior European steel to work with; not that local crap what passes for metal .