Strange flamboyant blade rapier on ebay

Rick · 11th November 2008, 06:42 PM

Could it be that we are looking at an Indonesian inspired rapier and not a wallhanger ?

Look at the form of the guard. notice that it is swept upward and outward on the same side as the gangya of a keris is .
I did not see any examples in Stone with this style of guard .

I may have to join Speculators Anonymous after this one ......

Jim McDougall · 11th November 2008, 07:23 PM

David, absolutely outstanding points, and well taken! It does make absolute sense that this might have something to do with the Portuguese in India, where serpentine blades with nagan symbolism were quite present. I had been wondering about those cross piercings, which are distinctly of Portuguese fashion and seen on late 16th century swords (of the type of rapier which became copied in Africa's Congo , as seen in Burton).

This rapier has been really puzzling, and while the Masonic possibility presented a rather intriguing and mysterious potential, I still hoped to find more true weapon vintage with it. With your true forensically astute eye, you have found what appears to be 'the smoking element'!! in the hilt. That repair I had not noticed.

Your observations on the combat potential of this weapon are well stated and thought out, and do offer compelling consideration that I also had not thought of.

Rick, your also well placed note on the swept upward asymmetric side of the hilt is very reminiscent of the keris, and adds to the potential for this piece having East Indies provenance as we are observing.

Returning to the Masonic perspective, the only element of this sword that remains curiously non-East Indies or Portuguese in India, is the pineapple pommel, which seems a distinctly 18th century European affectation, as Fearn has noted. I am not aware of the pineapple used as decorative motif on weapons of India, Indonesia or Portugal for that matter, and perhaps evidence of that feature might lend more to better securing possible provenance of this sword.

The game remains afoot gentlemen!!!
Excellent detection and discussion

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 11th November 2008, 07:42 PM

I wonder if this blade was possibly made by an Indonesian smith rather than European . I think I'm looking at a nice distal taper, and the curves evoke a really native approach .

Portugese steel meets Indonesian smith ?

Somebody throw a net over me, please !

Atlantia · 11th November 2008, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if this blade was possibly made by an Indonesian smith rather than European . I think I'm looking at a nice distal taper, and the curves evoke a really native approach .

Portugese steel meets Indonesian smith ?

Somebody throw a net over me, please !

You're just itching to etch it aren't you Rick? ;-)

Rick · 11th November 2008, 07:55 PM

Fall of Malacca to the Portuguese, 1511 ...

Staining ??

Nah, I suspect that if a Portuguese comissioned a sword from a local smith he would have given him superior European steel to work with; not that local crap what passes for metal .

Norman McCormick · 11th November 2008, 07:24 PM

Hi All,
The plate held on by the screws/ bolts, pointed out by David, looks to me to have been added because the tang on the blade was probably too small or a different configuration to the shape already cut into the hilt. This would then mean of course that the blade and the hilt were not made for each other. The reason I mention this is because I once cut a slot in a knife guard I was making and made it somewhat oversized, the solution, cut a plate with the correct slot and attach to the guard, problem solved. Just a thought.
Regards,
Norman.

Atlantia · 11th November 2008, 07:25 PM

The Victorians really liked the more ornate styles and the better Vicky repros can be very elaborate. I had a cup-hilt with the finest blade you could imagine (well possibly thats an understatement) but it was long and slender with several dozen shaped piercings in a wide central fuller, fantastic quality, just late 19thC!
If anything, the blade on the rapier in question is a little 'rough'. I wondered originally if it was a colonial piece, but despite the obvious talent of the maker, the surface doesn't look (to me) like it was ever polished. I think it was always intended to look old.
And is it me or does the pommel look cast? Like its come off a decorative railing.

katana · 11th November 2008, 07:42 PM

Hi,
Jim .... thank you for your kind words.

Are we sure that the pommel is a pineapple ??

katana · 11th November 2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Are we sure that the pommel is a pineapple ??

How about the Mysore Raspberry ? OK unlikely .....but I feel more likely than a pineapple...

afterall the orientation of the growth of the leaves is wrong, pineapples have 'blunted' ends ...the pommel is 'pointed' at its extreme end. A 'fruit' interpretation of the more common 'acorn' ???

Atlantia · 11th November 2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

How about the Mysore Raspberry ? OK unlikely .....but I feel more likely than a pineapple...

You know it does look like a raspberry! lol

Jim McDougall · 11th November 2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

How about the Mysore Raspberry ? OK unlikely .....but I feel more likely than a pineapple...

afterall the orientation of the growth of the leaves is wrong, pineapples have 'blunted' ends ...the pommel is 'pointed' at its extreme end. A 'fruit' interpretation of the more common 'acorn' ???

Aw raspberries!!!

You're really good David!!! Clearly my botanical and culinary powers of observation are slipping !!

Good grief, did I take my pill today!

I'm not sure about whether berry or not, but surely some kind of pod or budding plant.....I think we're more positive to the subcontinent and environs now.

Outstanding !!! Great observations you guys,

All the best,
Jim

fearn · 12th November 2008, 12:07 AM

Hi All,

Since I am a botanist, I do know exactly what you mean about it not looking like a realistic pineapple (image 1). It's a figurative pineapple (image 2, a modern finial).

If you modeled a pommel on a pineapple as we see it in the store, that bunch of leaves on the top would gouge your arm every time you brushed it.

Anyway, I think Jim was right in that it was a Tyler's sword, and here's an example from the web (image 3).

If anything, the hilt on this rapier looks more like something from Mars (see image 4: John Carter's sword from Edgar Rice Burroughs), not something from Asia, at least in terms of curlicue details.

My 0.002 cents,

F

Since I swiped the image, here's a link for the artist who made that martian longsword.

katana · 12th November 2008, 01:37 AM

Hi Fearn

,
I have seen the image for the Tyler's sword, after 'googling' "tyler's sword" in Google images ....the majority though were straight bladed

I think you'll agree though that the quality of the blade on this tyler's sword seems poorer quality than on the 'thread starting' sword. In fact it looks as if it once was straight bladed and then the waves ground out.

The sword could indeed be a Tyler's Sword ...... or a Victorian "wallhanger".... or perhaps something more interesting. I myself, am undecided .... but , I do not close my mind to the possibilities...any 'sensible deductions' that cannot be definately dis-proved are 'potentially' true.

Sorry Fearn, when looking at your example of the 'pineapple' finial .... all I see is ... artichoke

Kind Regards David

11th November 2008, 07:42 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi, Jim .... thank you for your kind words. Are we sure that the pommel is a pineapple ?? Attached Images

12th November 2008, 12:07 AM	#12
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, Since I am a botanist, I do know exactly what you mean about it not looking like a realistic pineapple (image 1). It's a figurative pineapple (image 2, a modern finial). If you modeled a pommel on a pineapple as we see it in the store, that bunch of leaves on the top would gouge your arm every time you brushed it. Anyway, I think Jim was right in that it was a Tyler's sword, and here's an example from the web (image 3). If anything, the hilt on this rapier looks more like something from Mars (see image 4: John Carter's sword from Edgar Rice Burroughs), not something from Asia, at least in terms of curlicue details. My 0.002 cents, F Since I swiped the image, here's a link for the artist who made that martian longsword. Attached Images Last edited by fearn; 12th November 2008 at 12:19 AM.

12th November 2008, 01:37 AM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Fearn , I have seen the image for the Tyler's sword, after 'googling' "tyler's sword" in Google images ....the majority though were straight bladed I think you'll agree though that the quality of the blade on this tyler's sword seems poorer quality than on the 'thread starting' sword. In fact it looks as if it once was straight bladed and then the waves ground out. The sword could indeed be a Tyler's Sword ...... or a Victorian "wallhanger".... or perhaps something more interesting. I myself, am undecided .... but , I do not close my mind to the possibilities...any 'sensible deductions' that cannot be definately dis-proved are 'potentially' true. Sorry Fearn, when looking at your example of the 'pineapple' finial .... all I see is ... artichoke Kind Regards David Attached Images

11th November 2008, 06:42 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Could it be that we are looking at an Indonesian inspired rapier and not a wallhanger ? Look at the form of the guard. notice that it is swept upward and outward on the same side as the gangya of a keris is . I did not see any examples in Stone with this style of guard . I may have to join Speculators Anonymous after this one ......

11th November 2008, 07:23 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	David, absolutely outstanding points, and well taken! It does make absolute sense that this might have something to do with the Portuguese in India, where serpentine blades with nagan symbolism were quite present. I had been wondering about those cross piercings, which are distinctly of Portuguese fashion and seen on late 16th century swords (of the type of rapier which became copied in Africa's Congo , as seen in Burton). This rapier has been really puzzling, and while the Masonic possibility presented a rather intriguing and mysterious potential, I still hoped to find more true weapon vintage with it. With your true forensically astute eye, you have found what appears to be 'the smoking element'!! in the hilt. That repair I had not noticed. Your observations on the combat potential of this weapon are well stated and thought out, and do offer compelling consideration that I also had not thought of. Rick, your also well placed note on the swept upward asymmetric side of the hilt is very reminiscent of the keris, and adds to the potential for this piece having East Indies provenance as we are observing. Returning to the Masonic perspective, the only element of this sword that remains curiously non-East Indies or Portuguese in India, is the pineapple pommel, which seems a distinctly 18th century European affectation, as Fearn has noted. I am not aware of the pineapple used as decorative motif on weapons of India, Indonesia or Portugal for that matter, and perhaps evidence of that feature might lend more to better securing possible provenance of this sword. The game remains afoot gentlemen!!! Excellent detection and discussion All the best, Jim

11th November 2008, 07:55 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Fall of Malacca to the Portuguese, 1511 ... Staining ?? Nah, I suspect that if a Portuguese comissioned a sword from a local smith he would have given him superior European steel to work with; not that local crap what passes for metal .

11th November 2008, 07:24 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,632	Hi All, The plate held on by the screws/ bolts, pointed out by David, looks to me to have been added because the tang on the blade was probably too small or a different configuration to the shape already cut into the hilt. This would then mean of course that the blade and the hilt were not made for each other. The reason I mention this is because I once cut a slot in a knife guard I was making and made it somewhat oversized, the solution, cut a plate with the correct slot and attach to the guard, problem solved. Just a thought. Regards, Norman.

11th November 2008, 07:25 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	The Victorians really liked the more ornate styles and the better Vicky repros can be very elaborate. I had a cup-hilt with the finest blade you could imagine (well possibly thats an understatement) but it was long and slender with several dozen shaped piercings in a wide central fuller, fantastic quality, just late 19thC! If anything, the blade on the rapier in question is a little 'rough'. I wondered originally if it was a colonial piece, but despite the obvious talent of the maker, the surface doesn't look (to me) like it was ever polished. I think it was always intended to look old. And is it me or does the pommel look cast? Like its come off a decorative railing.