Strange flamboyant blade rapier on ebay

fearn · 11th November 2008, 12:57 AM

Gee Rick,

Are you saying we have a keris-shaped object here?

Perhaps it belongs in the Keris coffee shop

Or maybe it's just a case of keris envy.

Seriously, I agree with you on the work of the smith, which leads me to think that whoever commissioned it had some money to play with, and (potentially) a reason to do it. I can see Jim's point that perhaps it was supposed to be a flaming sword guarding some secret fraternity or other. However, Europe was crawling with secret fraternal organizations at the time, so I'm not sure how much help that is in figuring out its provenance. A big "FREEMASON SECRET WEAPON" stamp on the side would have been useful.

Another thing that strikes me as odd is that it appears to have an ambidextrous hilt (this is more obvious in the ebay posting. I'd expect to see a commissioned piece be right-handed (or, perhaps, left-handed). The symmetry of the piece is puzzling to me. See the pics below. Comments?

F

Jim McDougall · 11th November 2008, 05:06 AM

Rick and Fearn, I'm with you guys on this blade...pretty fantastic work!
I'm still convinced this is most likely a Freemason's symbolic sword,probably used by the Tyler who guards the door of the lodge. It seems I recall a number of instances over the years, where some very interesting old swords have found a place as one of these symbolic swords in lodges across the country. I remember one had one of the Spanish colonial blades we have discussed a number of times over the years with the motto "draw me not without reason, nor sheath me without honor'. In other cases, mostly old cavalry sabres or ornate dress swords served the purpose.

According to "The Doorway of Freemasonry" by William Harvey, Dundee, Scotland, 1921, the old Scottish term tile/tyle meant to cover,hide, keep secret, and the officer who guarded the door of the lodge was solemnly entrusted with this duty. He notes further, "..there was a time when the tylers sword was 'wavy' in shape, and he adds that it was made in allusion to the flaming sword placed at the east of the Garden of Eden". He emphasizes that the tylers sword and office mark the dividing line between the lodge and the world.

Another Freemason site, this one in the U.S. notes that the tylers sword should traditionally be with a 'wavy' blade, and illustrates one of the more common neoclassic fraternal type hilts with a less elaborate straight wavy blade, and describes the same Biblical association to the flaming sword.

I agree that 18th century Europe, in Great Britain and on the Continent, was wrought with occultism as described in discussions on talismanic blades, and secret societies of many forms, most prevalent being the Freemasons. Of these secret societies and fraternal groups, the Freemason's seem to have the most identifiable weapons in most cases, however the tylers sword seems to have been a privately adopted weapon, which clearly carried a certain degree of status in earlier times with this Society. Members were of course typically of both gentry and sometimes nobility being well to do, and it seems reasonable that an elaborate piece like this would be commissioned.

I think it would be fascinating to find other rather elaborate sword examples that were likely used by tylers in these lodges, such as the one I mentioned with dramatic skull and crossbones that looked much like an Indian pata.

I remain convinced as well that certain obscure symbolism is subtly imbued in the motif, decoration and style in a number of cases in swords used by military officers of these times.

All best regards,
Jim

fearn · 11th November 2008, 05:21 PM

Thanks Jim,

I didn't know about the tradition of the Tyler's sword, and also thanks to Google, I now see what you mean. This makes as much sense as anything, so I'll be happy to go with your ID.

F

katana · 11th November 2008, 05:56 PM

Hi,
interesting sword.....although this is likely a 'Victorian' copy...or as suggested has symbolic qualities, there is a possibility that this could be 'authentic' (as a type of Rapier)

In Stone's 'A Glossary of ....Arms and Armour....' there is an example of Rapier that has a wavy blade stated as French, late 16th C (page 525).

A few thoughts....

Rapier develpment was 'meteoric' during a relatively short period of time.... development and evolution and it's demise. New ideas and modification seem to come and go very quickly....perhaps the Serpentine blade was one of them.

It is known that the Rapier was taken by the Portugese to India, bearing in mind that there were established trade routes between India with SEA it is likely that serpentine blades such as the Kris would have been known within India and later, the Europeans that colonised the area.

I also think that the wavy bladed Rapier would have a better 'cut' in the thrust (as with the kris) and possibly with 'slashing' cuts as well. Parrying an opponent's blade might also be easier and allow more control as the 'offensive' straight blade is partially trapped in the undulations of the blade.

I would imagine that if a wavy blade had the same 'reach' as a straight bladed' version it would be heavier. (ie if the wavy blade was 'pulled' straight it would be longer and therefore weigh more) Suggesting that if a serpentine blade was mounted ...the hilt/pommel would be heavier to balance the blade. It is a shame that we do not know the 'balance point' of this particular sword. If ceremonial, it is likely that a 'standard weighted' hilt would be fitted to the 'overweight' blade making it 'tip heavy'....making it totally unusable for a 'Rapier duel'.

Looking at the pictures ....there is a possibility that there is a later (?) repair.
There seems to be a metal plate that looks to be 'younger' than the rest of the hilt.....This plate is held by at least two screws....also noticeable are the gaps between hilt and blade

Regards David

Rick · 11th November 2008, 06:42 PM

Could it be that we are looking at an Indonesian inspired rapier and not a wallhanger ?

Look at the form of the guard. notice that it is swept upward and outward on the same side as the gangya of a keris is .
I did not see any examples in Stone with this style of guard .

I may have to join Speculators Anonymous after this one ......

Jim McDougall · 11th November 2008, 07:23 PM

David, absolutely outstanding points, and well taken! It does make absolute sense that this might have something to do with the Portuguese in India, where serpentine blades with nagan symbolism were quite present. I had been wondering about those cross piercings, which are distinctly of Portuguese fashion and seen on late 16th century swords (of the type of rapier which became copied in Africa's Congo , as seen in Burton).

This rapier has been really puzzling, and while the Masonic possibility presented a rather intriguing and mysterious potential, I still hoped to find more true weapon vintage with it. With your true forensically astute eye, you have found what appears to be 'the smoking element'!! in the hilt. That repair I had not noticed.

Your observations on the combat potential of this weapon are well stated and thought out, and do offer compelling consideration that I also had not thought of.

Rick, your also well placed note on the swept upward asymmetric side of the hilt is very reminiscent of the keris, and adds to the potential for this piece having East Indies provenance as we are observing.

Returning to the Masonic perspective, the only element of this sword that remains curiously non-East Indies or Portuguese in India, is the pineapple pommel, which seems a distinctly 18th century European affectation, as Fearn has noted. I am not aware of the pineapple used as decorative motif on weapons of India, Indonesia or Portugal for that matter, and perhaps evidence of that feature might lend more to better securing possible provenance of this sword.

The game remains afoot gentlemen!!!
Excellent detection and discussion

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 11th November 2008, 07:42 PM

I wonder if this blade was possibly made by an Indonesian smith rather than European . I think I'm looking at a nice distal taper, and the curves evoke a really native approach .

Portugese steel meets Indonesian smith ?

Somebody throw a net over me, please !

Atlantia · 11th November 2008, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if this blade was possibly made by an Indonesian smith rather than European . I think I'm looking at a nice distal taper, and the curves evoke a really native approach .

Portugese steel meets Indonesian smith ?

Somebody throw a net over me, please !

You're just itching to etch it aren't you Rick? ;-)

Norman McCormick · 11th November 2008, 07:24 PM

Hi All,
The plate held on by the screws/ bolts, pointed out by David, looks to me to have been added because the tang on the blade was probably too small or a different configuration to the shape already cut into the hilt. This would then mean of course that the blade and the hilt were not made for each other. The reason I mention this is because I once cut a slot in a knife guard I was making and made it somewhat oversized, the solution, cut a plate with the correct slot and attach to the guard, problem solved. Just a thought.
Regards,
Norman.

Atlantia · 11th November 2008, 07:25 PM

The Victorians really liked the more ornate styles and the better Vicky repros can be very elaborate. I had a cup-hilt with the finest blade you could imagine (well possibly thats an understatement) but it was long and slender with several dozen shaped piercings in a wide central fuller, fantastic quality, just late 19thC!
If anything, the blade on the rapier in question is a little 'rough'. I wondered originally if it was a colonial piece, but despite the obvious talent of the maker, the surface doesn't look (to me) like it was ever polished. I think it was always intended to look old.
And is it me or does the pommel look cast? Like its come off a decorative railing.

katana · 11th November 2008, 07:42 PM

Hi,
Jim .... thank you for your kind words.

Are we sure that the pommel is a pineapple ??

katana · 11th November 2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Are we sure that the pommel is a pineapple ??

How about the Mysore Raspberry ? OK unlikely .....but I feel more likely than a pineapple...

afterall the orientation of the growth of the leaves is wrong, pineapples have 'blunted' ends ...the pommel is 'pointed' at its extreme end. A 'fruit' interpretation of the more common 'acorn' ???

Atlantia · 11th November 2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi,
interesting sword.....although this is likely a 'Victorian' copy...or as suggested has symbolic qualities, there is a possibility that this could be 'authentic' (as a type of Rapier)

In Stone's 'A Glossary of ....Arms and Armour....' there is an example of Rapier that has a wavy blade stated as French, late 16th C (page 525).

A few thoughts....

Rapier develpment was 'meteoric' during a relatively short period of time.... development and evolution and it's demise. New ideas and modification seem to come and go very quickly....perhaps the Serpentine blade was one of them.

It is known that the Rapier was taken by the Portugese to India, bearing in mind that there were established trade routes between India with SEA it is likely that serpentine blades such as the Kris would have been known within India and later, the Europeans that colonised the area.

I also think that the wavy bladed Rapier would have a better 'cut' in the thrust (as with the kris) and possibly with 'slashing' cuts as well. Parrying an opponent's blade might also easier and allow more control as the 'offensive' straight blade is partially trapped in the undulations of the blade.

I would imagine that if a wavy blade had the same 'reach' as a straight bladed' version it would be heavier. (ie if the wavy blade was 'pulled' straight it would be longer and therefore weigh more) Suggesting that if a serpentine blade was mounted ...the hilt/pommel would be heavier to balance the blade. It is a shame that we do not know the 'balance point' of this particular sword. If ceremonial, it is likely that a 'standard weighted' hilt would be fitted to the 'overweight' blade making it 'tip heavy'....making it totally unusable for a 'Rapier duel'.

Looking at the pictures ....there is a possibility that there is a later (?) repair.
There seems to be a metal plate that looks to be 'younger' than the rest of the hilt.....This plate is held by at least two screws....also noticeable are the gaps between hilt and blade

Regards David

Hi David,
Great observations mate!

The balance point is a great idea. It looks like its going to be just below what would normally be thought of as 'riight'.
I say this because the handle looks a little long and the pommel is rather large. This and the obviously heavy guard with all its 'extras' and the large knuckle bow probobly make this 'about' balanced. I would guess the balance point to be about 4inches down the blade. But the critial thing as you mention is weight. As you say there are many 'dead end' rapier designs, but often the heavier ones are longer. Even the serpentine/flamboyant bladed rapiers are still effective in their length. I just cant see that being the case with this one. Rapier fencing is speed, I'd worry that this one would just get you killed.
Are there any period documents about incorporating the flamboyant blade into rapier fencing?
I find myself thinking about a fairly close-in thrust and sliding the point of the blade onto the target while at the same time deflecting an incoming thrust by angling the guard end of the sword outward slightly so the incomming opponents sword tip goes past you. The flamboyant blade would cause a slowing and wobble to this common and critical move, possibly causing you to miss and your opponent to hit.
Which made me think would the sword be kept in a 'up down' position (blade profile upright) while performing the thrust?
But then the blade would flex side-to-side! LOL, I'm waffling now.

Regards
Gene

11th November 2008, 12:57 AM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Gee Rick, Are you saying we have a keris-shaped object here? Perhaps it belongs in the Keris coffee shop Or maybe it's just a case of keris envy. Seriously, I agree with you on the work of the smith, which leads me to think that whoever commissioned it had some money to play with, and (potentially) a reason to do it. I can see Jim's point that perhaps it was supposed to be a flaming sword guarding some secret fraternity or other. However, Europe was crawling with secret fraternal organizations at the time, so I'm not sure how much help that is in figuring out its provenance. A big "FREEMASON SECRET WEAPON" stamp on the side would have been useful. Another thing that strikes me as odd is that it appears to have an ambidextrous hilt (this is more obvious in the ebay posting. I'd expect to see a commissioned piece be right-handed (or, perhaps, left-handed). The symmetry of the piece is puzzling to me. See the pics below. Comments? F Attached Images

11th November 2008, 05:56 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi, interesting sword.....although this is likely a 'Victorian' copy...or as suggested has symbolic qualities, there is a possibility that this could be 'authentic' (as a type of Rapier) In Stone's 'A Glossary of ....Arms and Armour....' there is an example of Rapier that has a wavy blade stated as French, late 16th C (page 525). A few thoughts.... Rapier develpment was 'meteoric' during a relatively short period of time.... development and evolution and it's demise. New ideas and modification seem to come and go very quickly....perhaps the Serpentine blade was one of them. It is known that the Rapier was taken by the Portugese to India, bearing in mind that there were established trade routes between India with SEA it is likely that serpentine blades such as the Kris would have been known within India and later, the Europeans that colonised the area. I also think that the wavy bladed Rapier would have a better 'cut' in the thrust (as with the kris) and possibly with 'slashing' cuts as well. Parrying an opponent's blade might also be easier and allow more control as the 'offensive' straight blade is partially trapped in the undulations of the blade. I would imagine that if a wavy blade had the same 'reach' as a straight bladed' version it would be heavier. (ie if the wavy blade was 'pulled' straight it would be longer and therefore weigh more) Suggesting that if a serpentine blade was mounted ...the hilt/pommel would be heavier to balance the blade. It is a shame that we do not know the 'balance point' of this particular sword. If ceremonial, it is likely that a 'standard weighted' hilt would be fitted to the 'overweight' blade making it 'tip heavy'....making it totally unusable for a 'Rapier duel'. Looking at the pictures ....there is a possibility that there is a later (?) repair. There seems to be a metal plate that looks to be 'younger' than the rest of the hilt.....This plate is held by at least two screws....also noticeable are the gaps between hilt and blade Regards David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 11th November 2008 at 07:32 PM.

11th November 2008, 07:42 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi, Jim .... thank you for your kind words. Are we sure that the pommel is a pineapple ?? Attached Images

11th November 2008, 05:06 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Rick and Fearn, I'm with you guys on this blade...pretty fantastic work! I'm still convinced this is most likely a Freemason's symbolic sword,probably used by the Tyler who guards the door of the lodge. It seems I recall a number of instances over the years, where some very interesting old swords have found a place as one of these symbolic swords in lodges across the country. I remember one had one of the Spanish colonial blades we have discussed a number of times over the years with the motto "draw me not without reason, nor sheath me without honor'. In other cases, mostly old cavalry sabres or ornate dress swords served the purpose. According to "The Doorway of Freemasonry" by William Harvey, Dundee, Scotland, 1921, the old Scottish term tile/tyle meant to cover,hide, keep secret, and the officer who guarded the door of the lodge was solemnly entrusted with this duty. He notes further, "..there was a time when the tylers sword was 'wavy' in shape, and he adds that it was made in allusion to the flaming sword placed at the east of the Garden of Eden". He emphasizes that the tylers sword and office mark the dividing line between the lodge and the world. Another Freemason site, this one in the U.S. notes that the tylers sword should traditionally be with a 'wavy' blade, and illustrates one of the more common neoclassic fraternal type hilts with a less elaborate straight wavy blade, and describes the same Biblical association to the flaming sword. I agree that 18th century Europe, in Great Britain and on the Continent, was wrought with occultism as described in discussions on talismanic blades, and secret societies of many forms, most prevalent being the Freemasons. Of these secret societies and fraternal groups, the Freemason's seem to have the most identifiable weapons in most cases, however the tylers sword seems to have been a privately adopted weapon, which clearly carried a certain degree of status in earlier times with this Society. Members were of course typically of both gentry and sometimes nobility being well to do, and it seems reasonable that an elaborate piece like this would be commissioned. I think it would be fascinating to find other rather elaborate sword examples that were likely used by tylers in these lodges, such as the one I mentioned with dramatic skull and crossbones that looked much like an Indian pata. I remain convinced as well that certain obscure symbolism is subtly imbued in the motif, decoration and style in a number of cases in swords used by military officers of these times. All best regards, Jim

11th November 2008, 05:21 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Thanks Jim, I didn't know about the tradition of the Tyler's sword, and also thanks to Google, I now see what you mean. This makes as much sense as anything, so I'll be happy to go with your ID. F

11th November 2008, 06:42 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Could it be that we are looking at an Indonesian inspired rapier and not a wallhanger ? Look at the form of the guard. notice that it is swept upward and outward on the same side as the gangya of a keris is . I did not see any examples in Stone with this style of guard . I may have to join Speculators Anonymous after this one ......

11th November 2008, 07:23 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	David, absolutely outstanding points, and well taken! It does make absolute sense that this might have something to do with the Portuguese in India, where serpentine blades with nagan symbolism were quite present. I had been wondering about those cross piercings, which are distinctly of Portuguese fashion and seen on late 16th century swords (of the type of rapier which became copied in Africa's Congo , as seen in Burton). This rapier has been really puzzling, and while the Masonic possibility presented a rather intriguing and mysterious potential, I still hoped to find more true weapon vintage with it. With your true forensically astute eye, you have found what appears to be 'the smoking element'!! in the hilt. That repair I had not noticed. Your observations on the combat potential of this weapon are well stated and thought out, and do offer compelling consideration that I also had not thought of. Rick, your also well placed note on the swept upward asymmetric side of the hilt is very reminiscent of the keris, and adds to the potential for this piece having East Indies provenance as we are observing. Returning to the Masonic perspective, the only element of this sword that remains curiously non-East Indies or Portuguese in India, is the pineapple pommel, which seems a distinctly 18th century European affectation, as Fearn has noted. I am not aware of the pineapple used as decorative motif on weapons of India, Indonesia or Portugal for that matter, and perhaps evidence of that feature might lend more to better securing possible provenance of this sword. The game remains afoot gentlemen!!! Excellent detection and discussion All the best, Jim

11th November 2008, 07:24 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi All, The plate held on by the screws/ bolts, pointed out by David, looks to me to have been added because the tang on the blade was probably too small or a different configuration to the shape already cut into the hilt. This would then mean of course that the blade and the hilt were not made for each other. The reason I mention this is because I once cut a slot in a knife guard I was making and made it somewhat oversized, the solution, cut a plate with the correct slot and attach to the guard, problem solved. Just a thought. Regards, Norman.

11th November 2008, 07:25 PM	#10
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	The Victorians really liked the more ornate styles and the better Vicky repros can be very elaborate. I had a cup-hilt with the finest blade you could imagine (well possibly thats an understatement) but it was long and slender with several dozen shaped piercings in a wide central fuller, fantastic quality, just late 19thC! If anything, the blade on the rapier in question is a little 'rough'. I wondered originally if it was a colonial piece, but despite the obvious talent of the maker, the surface doesn't look (to me) like it was ever polished. I think it was always intended to look old. And is it me or does the pommel look cast? Like its come off a decorative railing.