French mameluke? first batch of images

[celtan]

BTW, what's the average length for the French M1822 saber blade?
This one has a 34 3/4" long blade, width 1.25" at the ricasso, and .75" near the rounded tip.

The blade was originally even longer, back before the tip was rounded.

M

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

BTW, what's the average length for the French M1822 saber blade?
This one has a 34 3/4" long blade, width 1.25" at the ricasso, and .75" near the rounded tip.
The blade was originally even longer, back before the tip was rounded.
M

Mine had 34 1/2" and weighed 0,774 kg. I didn't keep a record of the width. As far as i can remember, the cross section looked similar to this one. Not that i assimilate that a blade can be recurved in such manner without leaving deformation marks. I go more for the experiment prototype. But let me not say is a good specimen, as i hope to be its next owner when you get fed up of it; i fancy abnormal stuff ... like me
'Nando'

[fernando]

... But if you are measuring yours it in a straight line, then its miles longer than a 1822 ... correct ?

[Jean B.]

Originally Posted by celtan

BTW, what's the average length for the French M1822 saber blade?
This one has a 34 3/4" long blade, width 1.25" at the ricasso, and .75" near the rounded tip.

The blade was originally even longer, back before the tip was rounded.

M

Originaly, the regulation length for a French Mle 1822 light cavalry sword is 92.5 cm which is about 36.4 inches.

After 1884, all remaining swords issued to troops were supposed to be shortened to 87.5 cm hence Fernando's measure.

Best,
Jean

[celtan]

Hi Jean,

Since mine is 88.26 cm _after_ having the tip rounded, it means that originally it was the longer 92.25 version, and the blade was never adjusted to the shorter post-1884 regs. It also suggests that the scythe shape was most probably done while the original longer blades prevailed, before 1884'.

Had it been a modified post-1884 blade, after rounding the tip, it would have been about 82 cm long. (minus ~4 cms.).

Thank you for your contributions, I just read your other comments on the AN XI sabre de cavalerie legere. They always make for interesting reading!

Best regards

Manuel


[QUOTE=Jean B.]Originaly, the regulation length for a French Mle 1822 light cavalry sword is 92.5 cm which is about 36.4 inches.

After 1884, all remaining swords issued to troops were supposed to be shortened to 87.5 cm hence Fernando's measure.

Best,
Jean

[Gonzalo G]

With all due respect, in my modest forging knowledge, curving in such way a blade already fullered, presents a great deal of difficulty. The problem is not no make the curve, but the metal in the outside of the curve strechtes and the inside make wrinkles, as the metal is shrinked, even in hot. So, the form of the edge, the fuller and the back must be reshapen, and the blade tempered again, grinded and polished. I wonder if this can be made on a blade already finished, and without extra material to work and expend. I would love to learn how can this be made, as my knowledge on this matter is not sufficient.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jean B.]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

With all due respect, in my modest forging knowledge, curving in such way a blade already fullered, presents a great deal of difficulty. The problem is not no make the curve, but the metal in the outside of the curve strechtes and the inside make wrinkles, as the metal is shrinked, even in hot. So, the form of the edge, the fuller and the back must be reshapen, and the blade tempered again, grinded and polished. I wonder if this can be made on a blade already finished, and without extra material to work and expend. I would love to learn how can this be made, as my knowledge on this matter is not sufficient.
Regards

Gonzalo

Yes, I agree it is amazing, but the marking and military inspector's mark give the assurance that the sword, once in its lifetime, matches the military standard and patterns of this government controlled factory and is the property of the government (the French ministry of war paid for it).

For me it is similar as if I find a military M16 rifle, with all the proof markings and a serial number corresponding to a batch sold to the US government years ago. And marking show also it was issue, and reissued, to the service. But...it has a knot made with the barrel.

Now, what hypothesis will I choose?
1) The US army ordered to the factory a batch of M16 with a knot in the barrel and issued it to troops. However there are no traces of such order or trials in archives and no other examples of a similar rifle in museums or military patterns room.

2) An armourer took a standard M16 rifle from military stock and managed to make a knot with the barrel.

I think I can only choose number 2 even if I 'll keep asking myself how this bloody armourer managed to make the knot in the barrel and...without altering the rifling!

I know the example is extravagant but it is only to show my reasoning process.

Cheers,
Jean

[celtan]

Yep, it's the rifling that makes this an interesting beastie...

Remember in WWII, the allies found a few MP-40s and STMG-44s wit their barrels bent? They thought it was queer how the explosions that caused their barrels to be bent left them so precisely curved...

Then they discovered they were used to fire around corners.
Or the obsolete vacuum tubes on the computer boards of the russian Mig-23s, or the Horton flying wing. Or the baby Luger...

I don't know, but the fact is that we have an old hilt, coupled to a new bizarrely shaped blade. This happens in 1845. Seems there was a hurry to supply someone with this type of blade, thus the old hilt. The blade seems either turkish or russian, and no one has seen similar in Europe. Could this be a limited order to supply in a hurry some Force outside the bounds of traditional Europe? Perhaps South-America, or the mis-Orient?

Jean, you're the expert on both French blades and History. Who might France be willing to equip in a hurry, back in 1844-1845?

I know, I know, all conjectures. Per'aps we'll never know, me' mateys.

Best regards to y'all

: )

Manuel

Originally Posted by Jean B.

Yes, I agree it is amazing, but the marking and military inspector's mark give the assurance that the sword, once in its lifetime, matches the military standard and patterns of this government controlled factory and is the property of the government (the French ministry of war paid for it).

For me it is similar as if I find a military M16 rifle, with all the proof markings and a serial number corresponding to a batch sold to the US government years ago. And marking show also it was issue, and reissued, to the service. But...it has a knot made with the barrel.

Now, what hypothesis will I choose?
1) The US army ordered to the factory a batch of M16 with a knot in the barrel and issued it to troops. However there are no traces of such order or trials in archives and no other examples of a similar rifle in museums or military patterns room.

2) An armourer took a standard M16 rifle from military stock and managed to make a knot with the barrel.

I think I can only choose number 2 even if I 'll keep asking myself how this bloody armourer managed to make the knot in the barrel and...without altering the rifling!

I know the example is extravagant but it is only to show my reasoning process.

Cheers,
Jean

[Jean B.]

Note that in the examples you mentioned, several items were discovered and then documented.

Note also that if the blade is dated 1845 it doesn't mean that it happened (the curvature) in 1845.

Note also that the issue numbers on the hilt are French regimental rack numbers.

When the French helped foreign states (eg. Poland in the 1920) or supplied trial swords (eg. the USA in the 1830s) it was with regulation French weapons, no custom made swords. In all this cases it was fully documented in governments' archives.

Jean

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

With all due respect, in my modest forging knowledge, curving in such way a blade already fullered, presents a great deal of difficulty. The problem is not no make the curve, but the metal in the outside of the curve strechtes and the inside make wrinkles, as the metal is shrinked, even in hot. So, the form of the edge, the fuller and the back must be reshapen, and the blade tempered again, grinded and polished. I wonder if this can be made on a blade already finished, and without extra material to work and expend. I would love to learn how can this be made, as my knowledge on this matter is not sufficient.
Regards

Gonzalo

Ho Gonzalo,

An astute and valid observation. Be interesting to have an answer. How were they forged?

Cheers
Chris

[celtan]

Found another, a Spanish blade made at the Cadiz Armoury in 1811...

M