Barong Classification

[Federico]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

federico,
glad you could chime in. you forgot to mention the boto shaped pommels so, since you appear to be the primary authority on moro weapons, would it be safe to suggest that we should just forget about the classification? with your vast knowledge on this matter, how do you suggest i approach this? i'm really just trying to create a very elementary, general guideline. ultimately, what i'm trying to do is, i'm just trying to learn more about what measely collection i have, and at the least would like to know where it specifically came from. as i've stated, i've used cato's book and this specific thread as my referrence:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000562.html

please fred, don't leave us hanging like this. whenever you get the time, it would be great if you can add pictures and stuff, maybe elaborate even more, then this thread would definitely be archive material...

ron

Ok...I am far from an authority on anything, let alone Moro Swords, just another hobbiest. However, this topic came up way back when before Mabagani joined the forum, and he was the one who pointed out to me that such pictures occur. I cant remember which reference he said to look at, and he would have far better knowledge about more common places to find these pics as he originally pointed it out to me, and has a far greater knowledge of reference material. Unfortunately all my good pics arent scanned, so I dont have a way of posting them online, and can only cite page numbers.

One thing you will note, is modern Tausug barong have many of the "Samal" traits, such as the up-turned scabbard tip, rounded shoulder, etc... My own suspicion, for what its worth as an opinion of a non-expert, has been what if the style denotes age (eg. changing tastes over time) versus tribal distinction given the photographic trends I have encountered in my own journey through the dark. Bob Cato notes the hallmark of a post WWII scabbard is the center ridge on the scabbard. Flat panelled scabbards, by that reasoning (barring of course exceptions), would generally be pre-WWII, but then how pre-WWII would be something to judge on the look of the whole sword/scabbard, and even then its just a guess. Anyways, sometimes I wonder if we are too picky trying to classify things one way or the other.

[Spunjer]

One thing you will note, is modern Tausug barong have many of the "Samal" traits, such as the up-turned scabbard tip, rounded shoulder, etc... My own suspicion, for what its worth as an opinion of a non-expert, has been what if the style denotes age (eg. changing tastes over time) versus tribal distinction...

federico,
as it was noted above, theoretically, post 1930's (why 1930? i don't know...) barongs are so similar that it is hard to distinginguish tribal distinction. are you just talking about the tagub part then? but there has to be a point in time where each of the tribes has their own distict style in both the blade and the tagub.

Anyways, sometimes I wonder if we are too picky trying to classify things one way or the other.

well, i guess that's part of being a collector in my case anyway. it's the curiosity in most of us to know every single detail and history of what we have on hand. in my case, if at all possible, i'd like to know the panday's name that made the barong i have. then it goes on and on... yeah, it would've been fine to know what a barong is, or what country it came from, but when someone mentioned that there are certain identifying traits as to the actual origin of this certain sword, it peaks our interests. also, i think it would be a disservice to the actual tribe that purposely left their distinct signature on something they revered so much and later on to be referred to as the other tribes' esp. in the philippines...

[Federico]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

federico,
as it was noted above, theoretically, post 1930's (why 1930? i don't know...) barongs are so similar that it is hard to distinginguish tribal distinction. are you just talking about the tagub part then? but there has to be a point in time where each of the tribes has their own distict style in both the blade and the tagub.

At least to my eye, the crest of a modern barong is very similar to the "Samal" style. If you filled in all the piercing, you would essentially have the modern crest that comes from the cockatua back vs butt plane as noted in Bob's book. Also notice the rectangular beak on modern barong. Another trait in common. So more than just the tagub is in common. I have a couple of ivory barong that may be from the 30s, but hard to tell, the features are extremely similar between the two styles. Both strike me as Tausug due to the lavishness of the pieces (particularly the use of swaasa for the punto on one, typical Tausug silver braiding on both, and Tausug chase work on the other). Anyways, one reason the 30s date pops up is the Hutchings article, and as well as Kriegers work, both written late 20s early 30s. I believe its the Hutchings article (Id have to go through it again) that points out modern kris lack the separable gangya. One thing Ill note as well, I find more newer pictures (20s and 30s) in which the "Samal" style barong is seen being worn vs. older pictures. Also, the Samal style Ive encountered have had far bigger blades (approaching more modern sizes) than the "Tausug" style. Anyways if the Samal style is the Samal style, why did the Tausug drop their own style of barong and then solely take up making barong in the Samal style. Again, going back to Kiefer, the power relation doesnt make sense. Then again someone like MorningStar could shed light on the matter. Then what do we mean by Samal? If we want to sub-divide further, are we talking Balangingi Samal, Samal Bajau (well this term gets thrown out in some older books), the Jama Mapun Samal, etc... Anyways, sorry about the nonsensical order of this post, real tired and just trying to type quick before work.

[zamboanga]

spunjer,


you could throw in the type of sampil fabric used in the scabbard. tho it is not available in each and every old barong...

[Spunjer]

zamboanga,
glad you brought that up. could you be so kind enuff as to differentiate those? i have one and the fabric feels like felt, and it is solid red. any significance???

[Battara]

Spunjer, I know that at one time for many tribes, the wearing of red meant that one had killed and it was a badge of honor and rank (red for blood). Later I wonder if it became more significant as a talisman.

[Battara]

You know, another thought came into my mind (still hurts ) and that is another type of barong to consider. Ibeam and I were discussing the sipit barong that has a narrower blade profile, and the hilt comes over in an angle and is almost flat at less than a 45 degree angle. I'll post some pictures if I can. This label comes from Cecil Quirino according to Ibeam and not found in Cato's book.

[zamboanga]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

zamboanga,
glad you brought that up. could you be so kind enuff as to differentiate those? i have one and the fabric feels like felt, and it is solid red. any significance???

glad to do that spunjer. here is a picture of a tausug and a yakan fabric placed side by side.

the tausug (left) has smaller designs, the threads used are much thinner. The tausug fabric in the picture is a cotton/silk combination (the pink threads are silk, the rest cotton).

The yakan fabric (right) has brighter colors, uses a larger thread and have bigger designs. this one is made of cotton and is of recent make. older yakan fabrics also used silk.

[tom hyle]

Fair to say that in the old days the individual threads in the fabric were likely made/spun/etc. within the tribe, but are now often outsourced off the open planetary market?