My Birthday Present: Knife for ID Please

[Jim McDougall]

Extremely interesting item Radleigh!! and great discussion on this thread which really has brought some well thought out observations and certainly has piqued my interest. I have done some checking in resources as well, and as always, that curious blade tip seems to be familiar, and of course eludes me!!

I am inclined to agree with the Continental assessment and likely second half of the 18th century, with this seeming to me to be a 'waldpraxe' or chopper as typically found in trousse de chasse, hunting swords or knives with sets of eviscerating instruments. These are described in "Wallace Collection Catalogs" (Sir James Mann, 1962, #A703, 704, p.356). This example of course is a singular item without the usual accompanying implements.

Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", 1971) discusses these hunting knives and swords and also illustrates on p.65 some of the interesting blade shapes found in 'trousse de veterinairre' suggesting the closeness of veterinary tools and hunting weapons in many cases.

Hunting swords and knives have long been closely associated with the gentry and nobility of many countries, and it is not surprising to see classical images and allegory in the decorative motif on these. The occult or magical symbols on the blade correspond to the talismanic markings that became prevalent on hunting swords from 17th into the 18th century, eventually in latter 18th century added to military blades. The panoply of martial trophies on this example suggest that latter 18th century date. French rococo style and brass also correspond to 18th century.
There is an interesting reference in Blackmore (p.57) that seems somewhat worthy of note in the neoclassic sense, referring to Charles V of France and his hunting knives, "...to be worn on silver chain while riding through the forest".

The curiously profiled blade tip on this piece seems to correspond with neoclassic and artistic decoration more than practicality, and seems deliberately dramatic to add to the aesthetic effect. It brings to mind the often consistantly seen features often seen on blades that seem to defy any practical purpose or symbolism, such as the deliberately placed notches on Austrian cavalry sword blade backs near the point in the 18th century.

Beautiful piece, and an exciting anomaly!!

Best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

In my humble opinnion, the chain is also fundamental to find this piece's purpose.
Say Radleigh, is the chain band placed at the middle of the scabbard, fixed (welded, riveted), or could you slide it towards the tip ... in a way that it would hang correctly, when you suspend it by the chain ? Are the chain links open or closed (welded) ?
In other words, if this piece can not be (belt) suspended, isn't it hard to conceive that it was made to be used on the field.
Wouldn't it therefore be a domestic implement ... to be laying on a table, the chain being only a fantasy. As Fearn sugested at a certain stage: "Perhaps it's a super duper fruit and cheese knife for a high end party ?" Or similarly a presentation cake knife ), offered to a big shot of the period.
Isn't its design rather awkward, blade curvature plus bizarre tip, to be used in animal surgery, or as bleeding fleam, or for butchering ?
... Just thinking aloud.
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

More excellent observations Fernando, and I had thought also of the possibility of a serving knife, to which this does have some resemblance in degree. I also thought of the notes on either surgical instrument or veterinarian tool, and tried to think of possible comparisons. On fishing knives, there is a very nasty looking hooked type profile in the blade tip on
the back, which is colorfully termed the 'guthook'.

Despite these possibilities, the one feature that suggests the hunting association is that these blade markings with magical/talismanic and military style occur only on either hunting or military weapons. As far as I know, no medical, veterinary or surgical instruments carry such markings on the blades, nor of course do items of cutlery or serving implements.

Also, I am not aware of such instruments or serving cutlery typically mounted in scabbards.
The chain seems a decorative element, much as seen on ceremonial and parade swords in certain cases, and suggests possibly presentation, or diplomatic gift type item, as does the elaborate motif of the piece.

I like your thinking Fernando!! and like you, humbly present my thoughts. The more all of us bounce this around, the closer we get to an answer.
I wish I could remember where I saw a blade tip something like this..I think it was the falchion or something like it in Stone.

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Per my earlier assessment, I agree with Jim and stick with my gut feeling that this is a hunting implement based on the markings and styling. As far as a "cheese knife" or fruit cutter, I would again point out the fullers/blood grooves on this piece (although some fruit can be quite juicy, I suppose!
The curious point could be decorative, but it seems to make total sense that it could be used to eviscerate game and gut fish as Jim pointed out. Going back to the talismanic symbolism, I always find it fascinating that even in european society, the properties of the "hunt" and magic to call up luck at finding the game combine nicely with these talismanic pieces.

[VANDOO]

PERSONALLY I USE THE TIP OF SUCH A KNIFE TO REMOVE THE JEWEL FROM THE NAVELS OF DANCING GIRLS WHO DO NOT PLEASE ME.
JUST KIDDING A VERY INTERESTING ITEM CONGRADULATIONS.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

PERSONALLY I USE THE TIP OF SUCH A KNIFE TO REMOVE THE JEWEL FROM THE NAVELS OF DANCING GIRLS WHO DO NOT PLEASE ME.
JUST KIDDING A VERY INTERESTING ITEM CONGRADULATIONS.

LOL!!!

Excellent! You should start a thread with that picture Vandoo!
'Meet the Forumites'

[Rick]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

The curious point could be decorative, but it seems to make total sense that it could be used to eviscerate game and gut fish as Jim pointed out.

That would seem sensible but a gut hook needs to be very sharp and the inside of the tip does not seem to me to be sharpened for the task; also the extreme curve would seem to make gutting prey very awkward .

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c...6_2007_1292659

That chain appears purely decorative as the links do not appear to be welded or soldered for strengththening purposes .

I'm kind of leaning towards Fernando's point of view .

[fearn]

Hi Rick,

That's why I called it a fruit knife back there. Anyway, there's a way to settle the "gut hook" issue. Try to use it, preferably on something soft and harmless like a piece of paper or a paper towel. Of course, most of us have bought knives that can't perform their putative functions, but if it really can't cut, that might tell us something.

The first thing that tip reminded me of was one of those faux forks on the tip of a cheese knife, and that, combined with the goat head and grapes up top made me think of a party piece.

A couple more observations. One question: is the bound figure a man or a woman? The figure below is definitely male, and while I agree that he doesn't have goat hooves, the satyrs that accompanied Dionysus didn't necessarily have hooves either (Wikipedia Dionysus and satyr picture link; Wikipedia Satyr article ). Alternatively, it could be a bound woman with a man between her legs.

I still lean towards the bound figure being Dionysus or Bacchus. Man or woman, the symbolism on the handle is more consistent with partying than with hunting, in my opinion.

The second observation is the piece may have lasted, simply because it didn't get used very often. That would argue either that it was a presentation piece (thanks Fernando!), a party piece, or a hunting knife that was poorly designed, and hence didn't get used often.

This is a great discussion. Thanks gentlemen!

F

[Rick]

Fearn,
One could imagine a bit of cheese impaled on its tip .