My Birthday Present: Knife for ID Please

fernando · 2nd November 2008, 07:36 PM

Hi Manolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

... european country that had significant islamic presence in the mid-19th C.? Albania, Hungary, Croatia, Turkey, Montenegro, etc...?

Aren't Muslims prohibited to depict human (and other) figures ?
... Probably i am talking nonsense again

Fernando

fearn · 2nd November 2008, 09:33 PM

Hi All,

Neat piece! To me, the most surprising thing is that it's sharp. I would have guessed that it was dull, given the odd shape, the chain hanger, and all the symbolism.

I'm starting to wonder if those figures on the handle aren't supposed to be Dionysius (or Bacchus) with a satyr covering his crotch so that he wouldn't appear nude. That design has me scratching my head, because I know Greek and Roman mythology pretty well, and it isn't ringing any bells. I'm also wondering whether the design is supposed to be (homo)erotic in some way, or merely humorous. In guessing that it was something to do with Dionysius, I'm going with the humorous interpretation, but I really don't know. Perhaps Samson? I'm missing a clue here.

I'm not sure what to make of all the blade markings, but someone went to a lot of trouble to do sun, moon, starrish things and a fascus, spears, swords, and drum.

Perhaps it's a super duper fruit and cheese knife for a high end party?

Hi Fernando,

We can talk over a glass of shiraz (first grown in Iran) and talk about whether all muslims strictly follow the precepts of Islam...

Human figures aren't supposed to be shown, but they aren't supposed to drink alcohol, either. That said, I don't think it's Muslim, but beyond guessing European, I don't know what to make of it.

F

CourseEight · 2nd November 2008, 11:04 PM

Thanks again everyone for your insights. A couple more things to clear up:

The tip is NOT sharp, nor is the interior of the "heart" shape. And the sharpening job definitiely looks intentional and by design; it goes from a very keen edge and gradually thickens to about 2 mm thick. I.e. it doesn't look like a tulward ricasso, where it goes from sharp to dull somewhat abruptly because the blade just stopped being sharpened.

The chain does indeed appear to be non-functional. In fact, suspending it by the chain makes the blade hang almost vertically upside down, because the brass handle is so heavy. Suspending it by just the attachment point closest to the handle makes the knife hang approximately horizontal.

I like the Baccus idea (there do appear to be grapes there) but the guy holding the other man's crotch is definitely a human, as you can see his toes in one of the pictures rather than a goat-foot. My brother-in-law suggested the hanging man could be Prometheus?

Thanks again, and hopefully this additional info will be useful!

--Radleigh

Atlantia · 3rd November 2008, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Manolo

Aren't Muslims prohibited to depict human (and other) figures ?
... Probably i am talking nonsense again

Fernando

Quite right mate. In a strict interpretation, images of any living creatures are off limits, but some less strict muslim cultures seem to have a more liberal view of this.

Gavin Nugent · 3rd November 2008, 11:44 AM

What a generous Mum you have there, I watched this auction end and it was listed as a Turkish sacrafical knife from memory but whenever I hear that I take it with a grain of salt. I too would say Trousse as there was a Chinese Trousse that I bought from the same seller and as he deals in arms I would hazard a guess that there was a collection of unusual trousse that he purchased and has sold on.

A lovely piece and unique too I would say, I too saved the images for future reference.

Nice work

Gav

PS I am looking for a loving home where mum would spend all her money on edged weapons for me too....

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2008, 02:49 PM

This looks like a German 19th century hunting knife made in the Renaissance revival style as already mentioned. In this picture of an original 15th century piece although a small image you can still see the superior modelling and casting.

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2008, 05:00 PM

Just thought I had better explain myself a little more. Extacts from "High Victorian Design" 1975

CourseEight · 3rd November 2008, 10:43 PM

Thanks once again for your responses! I do still wonder if Norman McCormick's suggestion of a military doctor's field knife has merit over a purely hunting piece, mostly because I don't know how common it would be for the panoply marking especially to be immitated on a civilian piece. Does anyone have any examples of this? Or a hunting trousse that exhibits this degree of curvature?

Tim, thank you very much for your detailed information about the artistic style. I'm curious; if a knife were meant to be a "user," would they attempt to match the specific motif portrayed to its usage, or was it purely aestethic? I ask this because I wonder if I could better pin down what the handle is trying to portray, would this imply anything about the purpose of the knife itself?

2nd November 2008, 11:04 PM	#3
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks again everyone for your insights. A couple more things to clear up: The tip is NOT sharp, nor is the interior of the "heart" shape. And the sharpening job definitiely looks intentional and by design; it goes from a very keen edge and gradually thickens to about 2 mm thick. I.e. it doesn't look like a tulward ricasso, where it goes from sharp to dull somewhat abruptly because the blade just stopped being sharpened. The chain does indeed appear to be non-functional. In fact, suspending it by the chain makes the blade hang almost vertically upside down, because the brass handle is so heavy. Suspending it by just the attachment point closest to the handle makes the knife hang approximately horizontal. I like the Baccus idea (there do appear to be grapes there) but the guy holding the other man's crotch is definitely a human, as you can see his toes in one of the pictures rather than a goat-foot. My brother-in-law suggested the hanging man could be Prometheus? Thanks again, and hopefully this additional info will be useful! --Radleigh Last edited by CourseEight; 2nd November 2008 at 11:25 PM.

3rd November 2008, 11:44 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	What a generous mum What a generous Mum you have there, I watched this auction end and it was listed as a Turkish sacrafical knife from memory but whenever I hear that I take it with a grain of salt. I too would say Trousse as there was a Chinese Trousse that I bought from the same seller and as he deals in arms I would hazard a guess that there was a collection of unusual trousse that he purchased and has sold on. A lovely piece and unique too I would say, I too saved the images for future reference. Nice work Gav PS I am looking for a loving home where mum would spend all her money on edged weapons for me too....

3rd November 2008, 02:49 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	This looks like a German 19th century hunting knife made in the Renaissance revival style as already mentioned. In this picture of an original 15th century piece although a small image you can still see the superior modelling and casting. Attached Images

3rd November 2008, 05:00 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Just thought I had better explain myself a little more. Extacts from "High Victorian Design" 1975 Attached Images

2nd November 2008, 09:33 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, Neat piece! To me, the most surprising thing is that it's sharp. I would have guessed that it was dull, given the odd shape, the chain hanger, and all the symbolism. I'm starting to wonder if those figures on the handle aren't supposed to be Dionysius (or Bacchus) with a satyr covering his crotch so that he wouldn't appear nude. That design has me scratching my head, because I know Greek and Roman mythology pretty well, and it isn't ringing any bells. I'm also wondering whether the design is supposed to be (homo)erotic in some way, or merely humorous. In guessing that it was something to do with Dionysius, I'm going with the humorous interpretation, but I really don't know. Perhaps Samson? I'm missing a clue here. I'm not sure what to make of all the blade markings, but someone went to a lot of trouble to do sun, moon, starrish things and a fascus, spears, swords, and drum. Perhaps it's a super duper fruit and cheese knife for a high end party? Hi Fernando, We can talk over a glass of shiraz (first grown in Iran) and talk about whether all muslims strictly follow the precepts of Islam... Human figures aren't supposed to be shown, but they aren't supposed to drink alcohol, either. That said, I don't think it's Muslim, but beyond guessing European, I don't know what to make of it. F

3rd November 2008, 10:43 PM	#8
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks once again for your responses! I do still wonder if Norman McCormick's suggestion of a military doctor's field knife has merit over a purely hunting piece, mostly because I don't know how common it would be for the panoply marking especially to be immitated on a civilian piece. Does anyone have any examples of this? Or a hunting trousse that exhibits this degree of curvature? Tim, thank you very much for your detailed information about the artistic style. I'm curious; if a knife were meant to be a "user," would they attempt to match the specific motif portrayed to its usage, or was it purely aestethic? I ask this because I wonder if I could better pin down what the handle is trying to portray, would this imply anything about the purpose of the knife itself?