My Birthday Present: Knife for ID Please

[M ELEY]

Hmmm...very interesting piece!

OK, I'll take a stab at it. First off, it's of the period late 18th-early 19th century, based on the scabbard more than anything. It looks French to me, with the stylized hilt classic for the period and again, the scabbard also in the French pattern. At first glance, I thought perhaps it was a cut-down blade, but now I think it is original. The markings are indeed copies of markings found on hangers and cuttoes of the period, and although not of the same exact quality, still wouldn't call them 'crude'. These markings fell out of favor by mid-19th, so I don't think its of the later period.

Weighing all this, I would say that this is either a small hunting hanger based on the markings found on other such hunting swords (definately not a fighting sword) and resembling many of the side knives seen in hunting TROUSES...or it's just a stylized piece of cutlery made as a "show-off" piece. Still, it's pretty cool. The curved point end could have been used to help split open the game/hide. Note the fuller/blood groove, again leading me to suspect hunting knive/sword.
How long is the piece,BTW?

[celtan]

There are lots of half-moons motifs, including one at the top of the halberd, where it's outright abnormal. The design is european, so perhaps we should look at an european country that had significant islamic presence in the mid-19th C.?

Albania, Hungary, Croatia, Turkey, Montenegro, etc...?

[CourseEight]

Thanks for the replies so far! The straight-line distance from the end of the handle to the tip of the scabbard is 14.5 in. Blade length approx. 9 in.

I did mean crude in a comparitive sense, of course. It's quite a pretty piece, and still VERY sharp, so a hunting sort of knife makes perfect sense. I wonder how the motifs of the handle may relate to hunting in some way? I'm actually quite interested in what the handle is supposed to represent. Also, do you think the stylized tip might represent a heart?

M ELEY and everyone, I would be very interested in seeing scabbards and hunting trousses in general of this time period for comparison!

--Radleigh

[fernando]

Hi Radleigh

Originally Posted by CourseEight

...Also, do you think the stylized tip might represent a heart? ...

Whether or not it's a heart, it's also what occurred to me in the moment i saw it.

Isn't that suspension chain somehow 'non operational' for a field hunting dagger ? Doesn't it sugest, as the rest of the decoration, a sort of presentation cerimonial dirk type specimen ?
Sorry if i am talking nonsense .


Fernando

[fernando]

Hi Manolo

Originally Posted by celtan

... european country that had significant islamic presence in the mid-19th C.? Albania, Hungary, Croatia, Turkey, Montenegro, etc...?

Aren't Muslims prohibited to depict human (and other) figures ?
... Probably i am talking nonsense again

Fernando

[fearn]

Hi All,

Neat piece! To me, the most surprising thing is that it's sharp. I would have guessed that it was dull, given the odd shape, the chain hanger, and all the symbolism.

I'm starting to wonder if those figures on the handle aren't supposed to be Dionysius (or Bacchus) with a satyr covering his crotch so that he wouldn't appear nude. That design has me scratching my head, because I know Greek and Roman mythology pretty well, and it isn't ringing any bells. I'm also wondering whether the design is supposed to be (homo)erotic in some way, or merely humorous. In guessing that it was something to do with Dionysius, I'm going with the humorous interpretation, but I really don't know. Perhaps Samson? I'm missing a clue here.

I'm not sure what to make of all the blade markings, but someone went to a lot of trouble to do sun, moon, starrish things and a fascus, spears, swords, and drum.

Perhaps it's a super duper fruit and cheese knife for a high end party?

Hi Fernando,

We can talk over a glass of shiraz (first grown in Iran) and talk about whether all muslims strictly follow the precepts of Islam... Human figures aren't supposed to be shown, but they aren't supposed to drink alcohol, either. That said, I don't think it's Muslim, but beyond guessing European, I don't know what to make of it.

F

[CourseEight]

Thanks again everyone for your insights. A couple more things to clear up:

The tip is NOT sharp, nor is the interior of the "heart" shape. And the sharpening job definitiely looks intentional and by design; it goes from a very keen edge and gradually thickens to about 2 mm thick. I.e. it doesn't look like a tulward ricasso, where it goes from sharp to dull somewhat abruptly because the blade just stopped being sharpened.

The chain does indeed appear to be non-functional. In fact, suspending it by the chain makes the blade hang almost vertically upside down, because the brass handle is so heavy. Suspending it by just the attachment point closest to the handle makes the knife hang approximately horizontal.

I like the Baccus idea (there do appear to be grapes there) but the guy holding the other man's crotch is definitely a human, as you can see his toes in one of the pictures rather than a goat-foot. My brother-in-law suggested the hanging man could be Prometheus?

Thanks again, and hopefully this additional info will be useful!

--Radleigh

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Manolo



Aren't Muslims prohibited to depict human (and other) figures ?
... Probably i am talking nonsense again

Fernando

Quite right mate. In a strict interpretation, images of any living creatures are off limits, but some less strict muslim cultures seem to have a more liberal view of this.

[Gavin Nugent]

What a generous Mum you have there, I watched this auction end and it was listed as a Turkish sacrafical knife from memory but whenever I hear that I take it with a grain of salt. I too would say Trousse as there was a Chinese Trousse that I bought from the same seller and as he deals in arms I would hazard a guess that there was a collection of unusual trousse that he purchased and has sold on.

A lovely piece and unique too I would say, I too saved the images for future reference.

Nice work

Gav

PS I am looking for a loving home where mum would spend all her money on edged weapons for me too....

[Tim Simmons]

This looks like a German 19th century hunting knife made in the Renaissance revival style as already mentioned. In this picture of an original 15th century piece although a small image you can still see the superior modelling and casting.

[Tim Simmons]

Just thought I had better explain myself a little more. Extacts from "High Victorian Design" 1975