Mughal Kard?

Jens Nordlunde · 11th April 2005, 01:59 PM

Hi Battara,

As no one else has answered you as yet, let me try, although I doubt you will be satisfied with my answer.

Only very few authors comment on the flowers used for decoration, 98% write floral decoration, which is a very safe way to describe it. It is a most interesting and very difficult area, as some of the goldsmiths were more artistic than others, some wanted the decoration to look like the real flower while others wanted it to be more stylistic. Another thing is, that I don’t have the names of all of the flowers most used, as far as I know – but I am working on it. Amongst the flowers used is Chrysanthemum Indicum, notice that this is a different kind than the one used in China and Japan, as this is a plant with a lot of small flowers, and can be found in many colours, where as the flower used in China and Japan are very big flowers, although both flowers have many petals, they are quite different. One of the flowers, which often are the easiest to recognise, is the poppy, but you should not concentrate on the flower alone, you should also look at the leaves, as these can help you in the search. I can not, at the moment, tell you what flowers are shown on your knife, but, as I said I am working on it, and when I know more I will return, one other thing you must remember is, that any decoration on Indian weapons were not only decoration, they had a symbolic meaning, and sometimes they show flower buds, which could be almost from any flower.

Have a look at the two pictures, they are from the same tulwar, but the floral decoration shown is different on the over and underside of the disc. I think the flowers, shown on the underside are Chrysanthemum Indicum.

It is a very nice knife you show. It looks very slim but also very long, how big is it?

It is hard to tell from a picture, but I would say it is late 18th or early 19th century.

Jim McDougall · 11th April 2005, 05:47 PM

Hello Battara,
I would consider this a Mughal kard, although it does seem quite elongated. I think what Jens has said concerning the floral motif is right on target, and some very focused evaluation will be necessary as this subject in these weapons is quite important.
As Dr. Robert Elgood has noted in his outstanding new book "Hindu Arms & Ritual" (p.129), "...it follows that a plant depicted on a weapon is likely to represent more than its decorative value".
While this of course focuses on Hindu weapons, it should be remembered that the iconography on Indian weapons often was duplicated on both Mughal and Hindu weapons indiscriminantly. In his book, Dr. Elgood brilliantly describes symbolic meanings of flowers in this iconography and how certain flowers were even used to identify opposing armies in days before uniforms. To the best of my knowledge, his approach and perspective in the subjective study of these weapons is seminal, and distinctly notes the way ethnographic weapons should be studied. Until now, virtually all references that have described the weapons of India have focused on the western application of study that is primarily typology and categoric description.

It must be remembered as well in the study of Indian weapons that such floral motifs were often widely copied by subsequent artisans, and in many cases such imitation was not necessarily faithfully duplicated. Thus without awareness of such symbolic importance, the renderings often became highly stylized and degenerated. In many cases the number of flower petals, typically key symbolically, were altered, and the meaning was lost. In many cases this degenerated motif is a determining factor in estimating authentiity and age of certain weapons.

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 11th April 2005, 08:20 PM

Well written Jim, 'Hindu Arms and Ritual' is a must. Robert Elgood has indeed, as one of the very few dealt with the floral decoration. Besides from him, there are very few - unfortunately - who found the strength to do so. T.H.Hendley, from around 1850 did so, but rather vaguely, although he gives some examples in his book ‘Jodphur Enamels’. It is of course easier to recognise the flowers when they are made in enamel, rather than cut in steel, or maybe cast – although the cast flowers are much easier to recognise, as they were made in wax from the start, which mostly gives far more details.

Jens

RSWORD · 11th April 2005, 11:16 PM

I think Jose will share the overall dimensions of the knife but it is a small, petite knife that seems to have a delicate nature. Jose has found some early Mughal court wear with small, petite knifes stuffed behind a sash and so perhaps these little knives were meant for court wear. I have examined Jose's example and it is a lovely knife but slender, long and well proportioned. I had often wondered if it was a knife that might have originally been part of a trousse but some of the pictures Jose dug up the knives bore similiarity to his example. That would move the dating back a bit on the piece if this is the case.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th April 2005, 03:17 PM

RSword, do you mean that the knife is a bit like this one?
The one shown was made in the first quarter of 1600.
Total length 21 cm, length of blade 12 cm. It is in the same scabbard as a katar, and the knife is defenately not meant for fighting - more likely for eating.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th April 2005, 09:00 PM

RSword, is it so, that Battara has lost interest in this subject?

Battara · 12th April 2005, 09:13 PM

NO, just listening...er...reading and trying to find a time to give measurements and even some pictures of Mughal miniature research. Maybe tomorrow.

I do have another question, though, regarding the end of the pommel where a piece used to hang - would this be on a trousse or "Mughal steak knife"?

BTW - just finished reading Elgood's new book. Thus the background to some of my questions.

11th April 2005, 01:59 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Battara, As no one else has answered you as yet, let me try, although I doubt you will be satisfied with my answer. Only very few authors comment on the flowers used for decoration, 98% write floral decoration, which is a very safe way to describe it. It is a most interesting and very difficult area, as some of the goldsmiths were more artistic than others, some wanted the decoration to look like the real flower while others wanted it to be more stylistic. Another thing is, that I don’t have the names of all of the flowers most used, as far as I know – but I am working on it. Amongst the flowers used is Chrysanthemum Indicum, notice that this is a different kind than the one used in China and Japan, as this is a plant with a lot of small flowers, and can be found in many colours, where as the flower used in China and Japan are very big flowers, although both flowers have many petals, they are quite different. One of the flowers, which often are the easiest to recognise, is the poppy, but you should not concentrate on the flower alone, you should also look at the leaves, as these can help you in the search. I can not, at the moment, tell you what flowers are shown on your knife, but, as I said I am working on it, and when I know more I will return, one other thing you must remember is, that any decoration on Indian weapons were not only decoration, they had a symbolic meaning, and sometimes they show flower buds, which could be almost from any flower. Have a look at the two pictures, they are from the same tulwar, but the floral decoration shown is different on the over and underside of the disc. I think the flowers, shown on the underside are Chrysanthemum Indicum. It is a very nice knife you show. It looks very slim but also very long, how big is it? It is hard to tell from a picture, but I would say it is late 18th or early 19th century. Attached Images

12th April 2005, 03:17 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	RSword, do you mean that the knife is a bit like this one? The one shown was made in the first quarter of 1600. Total length 21 cm, length of blade 12 cm. It is in the same scabbard as a katar, and the knife is defenately not meant for fighting - more likely for eating. Attached Images

11th April 2005, 05:47 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,743	Hello Battara, I would consider this a Mughal kard, although it does seem quite elongated. I think what Jens has said concerning the floral motif is right on target, and some very focused evaluation will be necessary as this subject in these weapons is quite important. As Dr. Robert Elgood has noted in his outstanding new book "Hindu Arms & Ritual" (p.129), "...it follows that a plant depicted on a weapon is likely to represent more than its decorative value". While this of course focuses on Hindu weapons, it should be remembered that the iconography on Indian weapons often was duplicated on both Mughal and Hindu weapons indiscriminantly. In his book, Dr. Elgood brilliantly describes symbolic meanings of flowers in this iconography and how certain flowers were even used to identify opposing armies in days before uniforms. To the best of my knowledge, his approach and perspective in the subjective study of these weapons is seminal, and distinctly notes the way ethnographic weapons should be studied. Until now, virtually all references that have described the weapons of India have focused on the western application of study that is primarily typology and categoric description. It must be remembered as well in the study of Indian weapons that such floral motifs were often widely copied by subsequent artisans, and in many cases such imitation was not necessarily faithfully duplicated. Thus without awareness of such symbolic importance, the renderings often became highly stylized and degenerated. In many cases the number of flower petals, typically key symbolically, were altered, and the meaning was lost. In many cases this degenerated motif is a determining factor in estimating authentiity and age of certain weapons. Best regards, Jim

11th April 2005, 08:20 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Well written Jim, 'Hindu Arms and Ritual' is a must. Robert Elgood has indeed, as one of the very few dealt with the floral decoration. Besides from him, there are very few - unfortunately - who found the strength to do so. T.H.Hendley, from around 1850 did so, but rather vaguely, although he gives some examples in his book ‘Jodphur Enamels’. It is of course easier to recognise the flowers when they are made in enamel, rather than cut in steel, or maybe cast – although the cast flowers are much easier to recognise, as they were made in wax from the start, which mostly gives far more details. Jens

11th April 2005, 11:16 PM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,094	I think Jose will share the overall dimensions of the knife but it is a small, petite knife that seems to have a delicate nature. Jose has found some early Mughal court wear with small, petite knifes stuffed behind a sash and so perhaps these little knives were meant for court wear. I have examined Jose's example and it is a lovely knife but slender, long and well proportioned. I had often wondered if it was a knife that might have originally been part of a trousse but some of the pictures Jose dug up the knives bore similiarity to his example. That would move the dating back a bit on the piece if this is the case.

12th April 2005, 09:00 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	RSword, is it so, that Battara has lost interest in this subject?

12th April 2005, 09:13 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,363	NO, just listening...er...reading and trying to find a time to give measurements and even some pictures of Mughal miniature research. Maybe tomorrow. I do have another question, though, regarding the end of the pommel where a piece used to hang - would this be on a trousse or "Mughal steak knife"? BTW - just finished reading Elgood's new book. Thus the background to some of my questions.