French mameluke? first batch of images

[celtan]

Thank you for your time and kind words, Jim. This spadroon is not mine, I found the images last wednesday while perusing through a well known auction site looking for similar blades.

You comment on the round tip is interesting. Was this practice normal or frequent among european armies using this type of blade?

Best

M

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

Thank you for your time and kind words, Jim. This spadroon is not mine, I found the images last wednesday while perusing through a well known auction site looking for similar blades.

You comment on the round tip is interesting. Was this practice normal or frequent among european armies using this type of blade?

Best

M

Not at all Manolo! It was nice of you to post these, as they show an interesting aspect of swords in the period at the end of the 18th and early years of the 19th centuries. As far as the rounded tip on the extremely parabolic sabre blade, actually that was not common for sabres, especially French.
The Napoleonic French light cavalry sabres had points, and what was distinct about French cavalry is that they were ordered to 'give point' in many instances. That is in attacking the sabre was held in high tierce and thrusting downward movement, if my understanding of the manuever is correct. It is well established that these thrusting wounds were nearly always fatal, and the argument for many years was thrust was superior to the cut for that reason.
The ultimate goal was a sword blade which accomplished both in equal degree. The French heavy cavalry chausseurs of course had straight swords for thrusting, but not as effective in cuts as the sabre.

The British 'spadroon' type hilt you have shown with the unusually curved M1796 light cavalry type blade, has the distinct 'hatchet point' of these 1796 patterns. The M1796 heavy cavalry disc hilt had similar hatchet type point,which indicates a blade tip which radiuses around with wide cutting edge. It is interesting that the Royal Scots Greys as they left England for Belgium just before Waterloo, were ordered to grind down thier blades to a spear point, illustrating once again the concerns for cut vs. thrust.

The hatchet point blades on the British M1796 light cavalry sabres were altogether too effective at cutting, and created such gore and mayhem that they were declared 'barbaric' weapons by Napoleon himself. These blades became long lived in the theater in India when they became favored by native cavalry units and tribal warriors, for thier profound cutting abilities. While the regulation British swords 'advanced' to pointed tips in 1829, these hatchet point types were produced for Indian regiments until the early 20th century.

I think much of the excitement in regulation swords is focused around the M1796 period and the early 19th century. I recall an article written by a friend in Denmark on the M1796 light cavalry sabres, which revealed as many as half dozen or more variations. Some were yeomanry, while many were interpretations by various vendors, and in this time the colonels supplied thier units, so between these factors, there was a spectrum of variations not seen in any other regulation pattern in this degree.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jean B.]

Hello there,

Originaly this sword was issued as a normal French Trooper Mle 1822 light cavalry sword with its normal slight curvature. The marking "Manufacture Royale de Chatellerault" + date was authorised only on government owned swords. The sword was also stamped by the inspector and controllers. The two set of rack numbers on the hilt show that it was issued two times to regiments for the service.

It is likely that this is a standard Mle 1822 trooper sword which was once modified (curved) by an individual. It could have been done twenty years ago as well.

It is a very funny sword, but I am afraid that it has no historical value.

All the best,
Jean

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jean B.

Hello there,

Originaly this sword was issued as a normal French Trooper Mle 1822 light cavalry sword with its normal slight curvature. The marking "Manufacture Royale de Chatellerault" + date was authorised only on government owned swords. The sword was also stamped by the inspector and controllers. The two set of rack numbers on the hilt show that it was issued two times to regiments for the service.

It is likely that this is a standard Mle 1822 trooper sword which was once modified (curved) by an individual. It could have been done twenty years ago as well.

It is a very funny sword, but I am afraid that it has no historical value.

All the best,
Jean

Hello Jean,
While this sabre has an unusually parabolic blade, I am wondering if this might have been for an officer of one of the more exotic units as mentioned. It does appear that the sword has experienced a degree of renewal judging by the hilt condition, but the blade itself seems an authentic Chatellerault piece. Were there such curved blades issued in any instances with the French army which might have been requested specifically by an officer in custom order as you have noted, as seems to have occurred on occasion with British officers?

Another detail that arouses curiosity is the rounded tip on the blade. On another thread in discussing this feature on a 'walloon' sword also with rounded tip, I had noted this often appeared on German made blades of 17th and into 18th century. It is my impression these were intended for the slashing cut, though I am unclear on how commonly this particular type point was used and the exact period. Most of the examples I have seen were in the period noted.

Once again, its great having you here!!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Jean B.]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hello Jean,
While this sabre has an unusually parabolic blade, I am wondering if this might have been for an officer of one of the more exotic units as mentioned. It does appear that the sword has experienced a degree of renewal judging by the hilt condition, but the blade itself seems an authentic Chatellerault piece. Were there such curved blades issued in any instances with the French army which might have been requested specifically by an officer in custom order as you have noted, as seems to have occurred on occasion with British officers?

Another detail that arouses curiosity is the rounded tip on the blade. On another thread in discussing this feature on a 'walloon' sword also with rounded tip, I had noted this often appeared on German made blades of 17th and into 18th century. It is my impression these were intended for the slashing cut, though I am unclear on how commonly this particular type point was used and the exact period. Most of the examples I have seen were in the period noted.

Once again, its great having you here!!!

All best regards,
Jim

Hello Jim,

I don't think this could be a special officer sword.
Officer's swords are private property and should not bear rack number on the hilt like this one
Numbers on the hilt are stamped in the regiments when the sword is issued to troopers for the service. The cross out number and the second number show that it was first isued in a regiment, came back in the artillery stores, and was reissued again. This happens only for regulation trooper swords and clearly this curvature is not regulation, I never saw any of them in documents. The only explanation is that the sword was curved after its normal regulation life.
Why and when it was done will remain a mystery, I am afraid.
If Manuel can give a close up of the poinçons on the hilt, or a description, I can check if the hilt date match the blade.

Furthermore, this parabolic blade doesn't fit the fashion of the period. During this period there was an inclination for straight swords. Many non regulation swords have a straight blade, medaillon style hilt (like the Zouave pattern) or multiple branches steel hilt wich finally gave birth to the regulation infantry pattern 1882.

When some romantic officers still wanted an highly curved blade sword, they sticked with the classic "sabre à l'orientale" with a wide flat decorated blade and only high rank officers could take the liberty to wear this kind of extravagant "sabre à l'orientale".
Note also that such highly curved blade needs a special scabbard with a slid on the side to allow sheathing.

Thank you for your warm welcome, but I am afraid I do not visit forums often anymore. However, feel free to drop me an email if you feel I can help.

All the best,
Jean

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Jean, and your explanation on the issue numbers on the hilt are very helpful. This clarifies the idea procedural protocol that would track the issue history of the sword itself.

All the best,
Jim


I wanted to add some notes to this thread pertaining to sabres of the early 19th century that I hope might add some related perspective.

The early part of the 19th century seems extremely interesting as far as the variations of sword forms. The Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt produced some most interesting influences in military weapons in British swords, much as in degree in French swords. The Mamluk warriors deeply curved sabres must have brought interest in the blades, as the hilts distinctly influenced both British and French officers sabre hilts after the campaigns.

In British swords, the M1803 flank company officers swords seem to have had unusually parabolic blades, though I have never understood exactly why that blade feature was so favored by them. With the M1803, the usual flowing lionhead mane on the hilt with one example I had, carried Egyptian theme with a sphinx type mane on the lionhead. I have seen certain British light cavalry sabres of the earlier M1796 form, in seemingly prototype sense, with deeply parabolic blades and even more unusual with rod type pipeback.

In a recent personal communication there is an example of a British officers mameluke sabre, as shown in Robson "Swords of the British Army" as the pattern 1831, which is mounted with extremely parabolic shamshir blade and mounted in Ottoman type scabbard with slit back for access of this dramatic blade. This in my opinion was likely custom mounted for a British officer in probably southern Arabia, Gulf of Aden, then British occupied and where many military outfitters furbished such custom weapons.

While it appears these fashion effects might not apply with this French sabre, I wanted to illustrate some of the contemporary instances with British officers swords of the period.

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

Obviously, Jean and Jim know much, much, so much more than I do about swords, that I can only accept their opinions as facts.

OTOH, this sabre's spine inscriptiosn are very clear, and the width/spacing of the brief fuller near the spine is uniform and consistent across its length. So, whoever did the curving truly did an outstanding job.

Is this a difficult procedure? Is it cheap? Can anyone do it? Is there an economical benefit for doing it, specially after paying a knowledgeable armourer for his work?

Why would anyone do it?

Could this be an experimental 1846 blade, mounted in a surplus 1822 hilt?

Questions, questions...Sounds like another Sherlock Holms mistery, like the old Danish Hussars Sabre.

Fun!

I'll take a macro pic of the poincon, and submit same soon.

Best regards, and do missbehave !

M