French mameluke? first batch of images

[fernando]

Hi Manolo,
within my ignorance:
The date looks like 1846.
The hilt looks like that of the 1822 cavalry sabre, isn't that so?
I am sure the best solution for these riddles with French swords is Jean Bick
jeanbck@hotmail.com
He is a nice guy; has just identified a sword for me, which was a bit tricky.
But let me tell you; tricky are also these shady overdimensioned pictures you post
Con mucho cariño.
Fernando

[celtan]

Howdy 'Nando,

Agree with you on both counts. Sorry about the giant pics. They are just a link to the image at PB. I'm not truly bombing the forum with large files...

Did you see my post on the french? court sword?

Apertas,
Manolo

BTW, you have a very interesting collection, from all the postings of yours I have seen . When did you start collecting? Were you in your terrible twos when you grab your first espada?

: )

[celtan]

Howdy 'Nando and Jim,


I already tried Jean Binck, last time I asked him about it he didn't know. But he liked my suggestion that the former owner had removed the blade's tip, perhaps after stabbing his own buttocks in the upward swing once too many.

The russians were keen on using this shape of blade also, as well as the persian shamshirs.


Manolo

Check this pics from a british 18th C blade...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

Howdy 'Nando and Jim,


I already tried Jean Binck, last time I asked him about it he didn't know. But he liked my suggestion that the former owner had removed the blade's tip, perhaps after stabbing his own buttocks in the upward swing once too many.

The russians were keen on using this shape of blade also, as well as the persian shamshirs.


Manolo

Check this pics from a british 18th C blade...

Wow! Thats a nice one too Manolo! This is a 'spadroon' type hilt (a very confusing term usually applied to straight blade sabres for infantry officers about 1780 with these neoclassic type hilts) which is mounted with a M1796 light cavalry 'hatchet point' sabre blade (but much more parabolic than standard). I have often wondered if there was some unofficial move for British officers putting these sabre blades on the established hilts which usually had straight blades.
I once had one of these c.1780 hilts which should have had the usual straight cavalry blade of 1780's (heavy cavalry) and had a curved sabre blade on it.

I have seen Scottish basket hilts mounted with M1788 light cavalry blades as well, so it would seem that officers may well have had thier armourers mount these curved blades at thier whim, which was pretty standard in those rather flamboyant times.

You're right, Russian officers too would often yield to fashion oriented exuberance in weapons, and the Persian shamshir was a weapon admired by anyone who had exposure to them.

The tip on your sabre seems 'rebated' or rounded, which is a standard alteration intended to widen the end of the blade for slashing cuts. This is often seen on Omani kattara and Tuareg takouba which characteristically have these points.


It seems to me both you and 'Nando have got amazing collections, and we're lucky to have you guys sharing things here. Thank you so much!!


All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

Thank you for your time and kind words, Jim. This spadroon is not mine, I found the images last wednesday while perusing through a well known auction site looking for similar blades.

You comment on the round tip is interesting. Was this practice normal or frequent among european armies using this type of blade?

Best

M

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

Thank you for your time and kind words, Jim. This spadroon is not mine, I found the images last wednesday while perusing through a well known auction site looking for similar blades.

You comment on the round tip is interesting. Was this practice normal or frequent among european armies using this type of blade?

Best

M

Not at all Manolo! It was nice of you to post these, as they show an interesting aspect of swords in the period at the end of the 18th and early years of the 19th centuries. As far as the rounded tip on the extremely parabolic sabre blade, actually that was not common for sabres, especially French.
The Napoleonic French light cavalry sabres had points, and what was distinct about French cavalry is that they were ordered to 'give point' in many instances. That is in attacking the sabre was held in high tierce and thrusting downward movement, if my understanding of the manuever is correct. It is well established that these thrusting wounds were nearly always fatal, and the argument for many years was thrust was superior to the cut for that reason.
The ultimate goal was a sword blade which accomplished both in equal degree. The French heavy cavalry chausseurs of course had straight swords for thrusting, but not as effective in cuts as the sabre.

The British 'spadroon' type hilt you have shown with the unusually curved M1796 light cavalry type blade, has the distinct 'hatchet point' of these 1796 patterns. The M1796 heavy cavalry disc hilt had similar hatchet type point,which indicates a blade tip which radiuses around with wide cutting edge. It is interesting that the Royal Scots Greys as they left England for Belgium just before Waterloo, were ordered to grind down thier blades to a spear point, illustrating once again the concerns for cut vs. thrust.

The hatchet point blades on the British M1796 light cavalry sabres were altogether too effective at cutting, and created such gore and mayhem that they were declared 'barbaric' weapons by Napoleon himself. These blades became long lived in the theater in India when they became favored by native cavalry units and tribal warriors, for thier profound cutting abilities. While the regulation British swords 'advanced' to pointed tips in 1829, these hatchet point types were produced for Indian regiments until the early 20th century.

I think much of the excitement in regulation swords is focused around the M1796 period and the early 19th century. I recall an article written by a friend in Denmark on the M1796 light cavalry sabres, which revealed as many as half dozen or more variations. Some were yeomanry, while many were interpretations by various vendors, and in this time the colonels supplied thier units, so between these factors, there was a spectrum of variations not seen in any other regulation pattern in this degree.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jean B.]

Hello there,

Originaly this sword was issued as a normal French Trooper Mle 1822 light cavalry sword with its normal slight curvature. The marking "Manufacture Royale de Chatellerault" + date was authorised only on government owned swords. The sword was also stamped by the inspector and controllers. The two set of rack numbers on the hilt show that it was issued two times to regiments for the service.

It is likely that this is a standard Mle 1822 trooper sword which was once modified (curved) by an individual. It could have been done twenty years ago as well.

It is a very funny sword, but I am afraid that it has no historical value.

All the best,
Jean

[fernando]

Hi 'Manolete'

Originally Posted by celtan

Howdy 'Nando,)

Now your'e getting close . One or two people call me Nando, a short name (also) practised over here. When i was young and my mother and sisters wanted to aliciate me to execute some task of their interest, they would even call me Nandinho

Originally Posted by celtan

Did you see my post on the french? court sword?)

Naturaly i did. I have no idea of what it is; but i have a firm idea that the scene on the guard is identifiable ... just needing somebody familiar with it.

Originally Posted by celtan

When did you start collecting? Were you in your terrible twos when you grab your first espada? : )

I was already in my fourties when i decided to keep my first sword and start collecting. I don't have that many things ... just stretch them to look like i have a serious collection .

BTW, if you keep thinking this piece is not existable in your collection, you just have to call me for business

Fernando

[celtan]

Nando, Nandiño, Nandín, Nandito, Nandy, Fernan, all spanish-galician variations of Fernando.

Manuel: Manolo, Manolete, Nolo, Manu.

Drat, There are so many more for yours than for mine.

Then Jaime: Jim. : ) .

OTOH, James has so many more variations across cultures: Jacob, George, Jacques, Yago, Iago, Giacomo...

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with Fernando, there are few authorities on European military swords, particularly French, with the expertise of Jean Binck. He has written many outstanding articles on them over many years, and I have always been most impressed by his willingness to offer help with the many queries he must get.

I also agree this hilt would be the M1822 French hilt, which saw service for the better part of the 19th century, and became the model for the famed U.S. cavalry M1840 ('the old wristbreaker').

What is the anomaly is this dramatically curved (fully parabolic) blade, and the colorful reference to the Mamluks, who of course did use curved sabres that influenced French, British and American military swords, however typically in the hilt, not particularly the blade.
It is worthy of note that the early years of the 19th century reflected considerable controversy, debate and innovation concerning weapons technology with sword blades. The British had established thier first official regulation sword patterns with the light cavalry M1796 sabre, derived from European hussar forms with stirrup hilt. In establishing the most suitable blade form, other blade forms with yelman were considered as seen on some tulwars and Turkish kilij, as well as the highly curved parabolic shamshir type blades, and Hungarian sabre blades.

I have seen British cavalry sabres with equally parabolic blades as this French example that date about 1800, and with pipeback blade. The well known Mamluk sabre of this period is known for the curved blade which required cut out at back of scabbard to allow the sword to be withdrawn.

In the United States, the Virginia Manufactory of Arms, from 1808-1820, produced its First and Second model cavalry sabres with extremely curved blades like this that were incredibly long. These were still on hand at the outbreak of the Civil War, and Confederate cavalry 'reduced' ! the blades to 35" length for manageability.

This French sword is clearly an anomaly, and would not appear in reference books regularly available as it may have been either a prototype or a custom order by an officer. If the date is correct as 1846, the Manufacture de Chatellerault was effectively commercial enterprise, and may well have entertained such orders.

In any case, this is a most unusual example of a French cavalry sabre, M1822, which clearly does exist, and reflects the profound influence of Oriental weaponry in the French military. They did adopt colorful units of Mamluk and Zouave type, and perhaps this sabre might have been to an officer of one of them.

Best regards,
Jim