Physiological effects of wearing armour and heat

Jim McDougall · 27th October 2008, 11:13 PM

Beautifully put Miguel! that is the most concise summary of this battle I have seen, and I agree, factors that brought the results came together in the analogic situation that has in recent years been described as 'the perfect storm'.
Thank you again for the well written detail.

Keegan described the situation well, and yours seals the deal!!

All the best,
Jim

kronckew · 27th October 2008, 11:23 PM

i do recall somewhere that the french had a plan to deal with the english archers that in fact would have worked had they followed it, but they did in fact celebrate their upcoming victory the night before. after all they overwhelmingly outnumbered the english, were fit and hearty, where the english were rife with dysentry and lack of supplies - of course they were going to win, it was only logical. the plan wasn't used as they didn't need it against so few opponents of such poor caliber. and thus was made history.

migueldiaz · 28th October 2008, 02:07 AM

Hi Jim, thanks for the compliment!

It's a very interesting topic you opened up and I guess we all but can't help contribute.

Hi Kronckew, that's one aspect of the battle I'm not aware of. Thanks for sharing the info!

Going back to the armour aspect, the King of England's opulent armour almost caused him his life.

And once again, de Wavrin's account provides us with a wealth of information:

"Then when it came to be early morning [day of the battle], the King of England began to hear his masses; for it was his custom to hear three every day, one after the other; and he had on every piece of his armour, except for his head gear; but after the masses were said he had brought to him his helmet, which was very rich, and had handsome crown of gold around it like an imperial crown ....

xxx

"... Among the arrangements made on the part of the French, as I have since heard related my eminent knights, it happened that, under the banner of the Lord of Croy, eighteen gentlemen banded themselves together of their own choice, and swore that when the two parties should come to meet they would strive with all their might to get so near the King of England that they would beat down the crown from his head, or they would die, as they did; but before this they got so near the said King that one of them with the lance which he held struck him such a blow on his helmet that he knocked off one of the ornaments of his crown. But not long afterwards it only remained that the eighteen gentlemen were all dead and cut to pieces; which was a great pity; for if every one of the French had been willing thus to exert himself, it is to be believed that their affairs would have gone better on this day. And the leaders of these gentlemen were Louvelet de Massinguehem and Garnot de Bornouille ..."

I'm sure that that lavish helmet of Henry V became a very convenient focal point for the band, in a sea of bobbing heads and helmets!

And in the 2nd to the last sentence of the quote above, we can see that de Wavrin also attributed the defeat to the lack of political will (or perhaps the lack of trying hard enough, or maybe just being too complacent) on the part of the French.

PS - On a positive note, I also realize though that the lavish helmet provides a visual cue for the English knights as to where their king is at any point in time.

Pukka Bundook · 28th October 2008, 07:13 AM

I don't know where now, but somewhere I read of a battle where nearly as many passed out or died through heat-stroke as became casualties by other means. It was in Europe but the details escape me.

I suppose if in the middle east one can fry an egg on a tank, the armour would be just as bad....except the egg might slip off the sloping bits!

Re. the longbow and things like battlefield detectives, I see the findings as quite flawed at times.
As in, a 60 lb longbow was used in one set of trials and it isn't surprising it wouldn't do what a 150 lb war-bow would!

Very interesting subject!

Richard.

katana · 28th October 2008, 10:10 PM

Excellent and interesting post Jim

,

due to a number of experimental archaeologists many of the the 'Victorian made' views of armour have been radically changed.

Although heat 'build up' was a problem.......dehydration was the true enemy. To cool down, the body sweats...the evaporation of this cools the skin surface reducing body temperature. However, within the 'confines' of the armour the moisture 'transferred' to the air space within ...creating humidity. Sweating actually increases in an effort to counteract these conditions and the loss of water increases significantly.

A number of researchers have discovered that knights fighting in the melee, would take turns at the front....returning after a rest and the intake of much needed water.

Knights also improved their physical health with various routines often in full armour. This conditioning helped to increase their 'heat stroke' tolerance.
Also their physical weight made a difference, excessive body fat actually increases the 'heat up' factor.

Knights also had to learn to breath deeply and freely to counter the restrictive 'breathing holes' in their visors .....slightly less oxygen would have a massive affect on the body's performance.

Regards David

28th October 2008, 02:07 AM	#3
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Hi Jim, thanks for the compliment! It's a very interesting topic you opened up and I guess we all but can't help contribute. Hi Kronckew, that's one aspect of the battle I'm not aware of. Thanks for sharing the info! Going back to the armour aspect, the King of England's opulent armour almost caused him his life. And once again, de Wavrin's account provides us with a wealth of information: "Then when it came to be early morning [day of the battle], the King of England began to hear his masses; for it was his custom to hear three every day, one after the other; and he had on every piece of his armour, except for his head gear; but after the masses were said he had brought to him his helmet, which was very rich, and had handsome crown of gold around it like an imperial crown .... xxx "... Among the arrangements made on the part of the French, as I have since heard related my eminent knights, it happened that, under the banner of the Lord of Croy, eighteen gentlemen banded themselves together of their own choice, and swore that when the two parties should come to meet they would strive with all their might to get so near the King of England that they would beat down the crown from his head, or they would die, as they did; but before this they got so near the said King that one of them with the lance which he held struck him such a blow on his helmet that he knocked off one of the ornaments of his crown. But not long afterwards it only remained that the eighteen gentlemen were all dead and cut to pieces; which was a great pity; for if every one of the French had been willing thus to exert himself, it is to be believed that their affairs would have gone better on this day. And the leaders of these gentlemen were Louvelet de Massinguehem and Garnot de Bornouille ..." I'm sure that that lavish helmet of Henry V became a very convenient focal point for the band, in a sea of bobbing heads and helmets! And in the 2nd to the last sentence of the quote above, we can see that de Wavrin also attributed the defeat to the lack of political will (or perhaps the lack of trying hard enough, or maybe just being too complacent) on the part of the French. PS - On a positive note, I also realize though that the lavish helmet provides a visual cue for the English knights as to where their king is at any point in time.

27th October 2008, 11:13 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Beautifully put Miguel! that is the most concise summary of this battle I have seen, and I agree, factors that brought the results came together in the analogic situation that has in recent years been described as 'the perfect storm'. Thank you again for the well written detail. Keegan described the situation well, and yours seals the deal!! All the best, Jim

27th October 2008, 11:23 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	i do recall somewhere that the french had a plan to deal with the english archers that in fact would have worked had they followed it, but they did in fact celebrate their upcoming victory the night before. after all they overwhelmingly outnumbered the english, were fit and hearty, where the english were rife with dysentry and lack of supplies - of course they were going to win, it was only logical. the plan wasn't used as they didn't need it against so few opponents of such poor caliber. and thus was made history.

28th October 2008, 07:13 AM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I don't know where now, but somewhere I read of a battle where nearly as many passed out or died through heat-stroke as became casualties by other means. It was in Europe but the details escape me. I suppose if in the middle east one can fry an egg on a tank, the armour would be just as bad....except the egg might slip off the sloping bits! Re. the longbow and things like battlefield detectives, I see the findings as quite flawed at times. As in, a 60 lb longbow was used in one set of trials and it isn't surprising it wouldn't do what a 150 lb war-bow would! Very interesting subject! Richard.

28th October 2008, 10:10 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Excellent and interesting post Jim , due to a number of experimental archaeologists many of the the 'Victorian made' views of armour have been radically changed. Although heat 'build up' was a problem.......dehydration was the true enemy. To cool down, the body sweats...the evaporation of this cools the skin surface reducing body temperature. However, within the 'confines' of the armour the moisture 'transferred' to the air space within ...creating humidity. Sweating actually increases in an effort to counteract these conditions and the loss of water increases significantly. A number of researchers have discovered that knights fighting in the melee, would take turns at the front....returning after a rest and the intake of much needed water. Knights also improved their physical health with various routines often in full armour. This conditioning helped to increase their 'heat stroke' tolerance. Also their physical weight made a difference, excessive body fat actually increases the 'heat up' factor. Knights also had to learn to breath deeply and freely to counter the restrictive 'breathing holes' in their visors .....slightly less oxygen would have a massive affect on the body's performance. Regards David