Pre-colombian weapons anyone?

Jim McDougall · 26th October 2008, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I don´t think this kind of metal piece has been used to trepanate or to sacrifice. The original piece must be made of obsidian, as the metals worked on pre-colombian times were very soft.

Maybe the last macahuítl known by an english spoken writter was destroyed. I think there are others on mexican museums and collections.
Regards

Gonzalo

You're right Gonzalo, my reference to the original tumi did not include that the blades were obsidian, thank you for noticing that.

I am delighted to hear that the two ancient weapons lost in the fire in Madrid were not the last examples, and it would be great to know where other authentic original examples might be found. It is indeed a great disadvantage to not speak other languages, as there are so many important resources beyond the western scope.

All the best,
Jim

fearn · 26th October 2008, 01:44 AM

Hi Gonzalo,

While I agree that most of the trepanation tools were obsidian, the Andeans worked true bronze and arsenic bronze, as well as copper. I think they started working copper alloys around 1000 CE (link to article). The Inka certainly were using metallic maces when the Conquistadors arrived, and they also used bronze in securing their stonework.

I agree that a gold tumi is primarily a symbolic tool, but if they made bronze tumis, those would be very different. Regardless, the major weapons of the Andes were probably slings, bolos, stone headed and wooden clubs, Amazonian style arrows and spears. I haven't seen any reference to suggest that bronze weapons were widespread in the Inkan army, and as far as I can tell, metal weapons were for the wealthy.

Final note: there's a book on Incan martial arts out now, for those interested (link to Amazon). It contains a short chapter on weapons.

my 0.002 centavos

F

lemmythesmith · 26th October 2008, 01:25 PM

Hi all, I got one of these, Inca 15th-16th century. Could possibly be Moche. Looks to be arsenic bronze-has a slight yellow tinge to it which I believe is a characteristic of the material.

Jim McDougall · 26th October 2008, 05:28 PM

Excellent information Fearn! thank you for posting this interesting material. I agree also on the use of obsidian in cutting instruments and weapons, which in the absence of iron and steel would seem desirable in that capacity. I really had never realized how sharp obsidian really was until seeing examples of it.
The use of bronze in this culture would seem well applied to blunt force weapons and other material objects, which brings up the interesting object posted by Lemmy.

Lemmy, would this be an example of mace head? I had never heard of arsenic bronze until Fearn mentioned it, and your post here. In checking into some of the information on this metal, I understood that it is said to be stronger than other alloyed forms of bronze, and that as Fearn has noted, the Andeans were adept at producing it. Apparantly while copper typically has a degree of arsenic present naturally in its deposits, true arsenic bronze is defined by the deliberate addition of arsenic taking its presence to from 2% to 3%.

The presence of arsenic seems disturbing, when thinking of course of its connotation as a poison, but well placed when thinking of its use to strengthen metal for weapons. An interesting note I found suggests that in a number of cultures noted for the use of arsenic bronze, many of the gods ascribed to the art of blacksmithing were depicted lame, apparantly with possible reference to symptoms of arsenic poisoning such as muscular atrophy and loss of reflex. ("Ancient Metallurgy", David K,Jordan, Univ. of Calif. San Diego, March 20, 2006).

It seems unusual that depictions of gods would reflect such earthly and distinctly human detail, and I wonder if the adverse effects of this process were actually known.

Returning to the actual item Lemmy has posted, would this be a mace head, or other symbolic object? It seems I have seen mace heads with this rather cog wheel or gear shape, and I often wonder if the shape has specific purpose or symbolism.

Best regards,
Jim

fearn · 26th October 2008, 05:42 PM

Hi Jim,

Always glad to do research for you. I don't have a collection like Lemmy's, but at the Museum of Man in San Diego, they've got an interesting exhibit that shows all phases of Andean trepanation, including the skulls. They show trepanned skulls and some stone blades they believe were used in trepanation. They also show skulls from people killed by cogwheel maces, and some of the mace heads, such as Lemmy has. The wounds in the skulls matched the shapes of the cog points.

So, yes, those cogwheel maces were used in battle. Trepanning (cutting a hole in the skull) looks like it was used as a way to repair the damage from a mace blow (among other things). The surgeon would cut around the impacted area and remove them the bone fragments, basically as a way of getting the dent out. Apparently it worked occasionally.

As an aside, one of the cogwheel mace heads at the museum even had a spoke shaped into an axe blade. As I recall, they also had stone cogwheel heads on display. Stone or metal, it's a good design.

Best,

F

lemmythesmith · 26th October 2008, 07:20 PM

Hi all, here's a good site with lots of good photos of pre-columbian wepons, the mace section has all kinds, including the devastating mace/axe that Fearn mentioned.

http://www.precolumbianweapons.com/

Jim McDougall · 26th October 2008, 07:53 PM

Thank you very much Fearn and Lemmy! Great information and resources. This whole topic is pretty much new to me, and really adds new dimension in understanding weapons of relatively much more recent times. I thought I might have seen those cog wheel forms before, but thought it was in something from India or Asia.

It always makes me wonder, why would these mace heads, intended for blunt force attack, have these crenallated edges on a disc? Having seen these outside this context, they almost seem like some ancient machinery (ala Indiana Jones

, so why wouldn't they, as maces, just been left smooth?

The material on trepanning is really interesting Fearn. It seems amazing that in these primitive times such 'advanced' (or perhaps daring) surgery was even attempted, and even more so that the patients often survived. I really do appreciate the great information you always find.

All very best regards,
Jim

26th October 2008, 01:25 PM	#3
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi all, I got one of these, Inca 15th-16th century. Could possibly be Moche. Looks to be arsenic bronze-has a slight yellow tinge to it which I believe is a characteristic of the material. Attached Images

26th October 2008, 01:44 AM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Gonzalo, While I agree that most of the trepanation tools were obsidian, the Andeans worked true bronze and arsenic bronze, as well as copper. I think they started working copper alloys around 1000 CE (link to article). The Inka certainly were using metallic maces when the Conquistadors arrived, and they also used bronze in securing their stonework. I agree that a gold tumi is primarily a symbolic tool, but if they made bronze tumis, those would be very different. Regardless, the major weapons of the Andes were probably slings, bolos, stone headed and wooden clubs, Amazonian style arrows and spears. I haven't seen any reference to suggest that bronze weapons were widespread in the Inkan army, and as far as I can tell, metal weapons were for the wealthy. Final note: there's a book on Incan martial arts out now, for those interested (link to Amazon). It contains a short chapter on weapons. my 0.002 centavos F

26th October 2008, 05:28 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Excellent information Fearn! thank you for posting this interesting material. I agree also on the use of obsidian in cutting instruments and weapons, which in the absence of iron and steel would seem desirable in that capacity. I really had never realized how sharp obsidian really was until seeing examples of it. The use of bronze in this culture would seem well applied to blunt force weapons and other material objects, which brings up the interesting object posted by Lemmy. Lemmy, would this be an example of mace head? I had never heard of arsenic bronze until Fearn mentioned it, and your post here. In checking into some of the information on this metal, I understood that it is said to be stronger than other alloyed forms of bronze, and that as Fearn has noted, the Andeans were adept at producing it. Apparantly while copper typically has a degree of arsenic present naturally in its deposits, true arsenic bronze is defined by the deliberate addition of arsenic taking its presence to from 2% to 3%. The presence of arsenic seems disturbing, when thinking of course of its connotation as a poison, but well placed when thinking of its use to strengthen metal for weapons. An interesting note I found suggests that in a number of cultures noted for the use of arsenic bronze, many of the gods ascribed to the art of blacksmithing were depicted lame, apparantly with possible reference to symptoms of arsenic poisoning such as muscular atrophy and loss of reflex. ("Ancient Metallurgy", David K,Jordan, Univ. of Calif. San Diego, March 20, 2006). It seems unusual that depictions of gods would reflect such earthly and distinctly human detail, and I wonder if the adverse effects of this process were actually known. Returning to the actual item Lemmy has posted, would this be a mace head, or other symbolic object? It seems I have seen mace heads with this rather cog wheel or gear shape, and I often wonder if the shape has specific purpose or symbolism. Best regards, Jim

26th October 2008, 05:42 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jim, Always glad to do research for you. I don't have a collection like Lemmy's, but at the Museum of Man in San Diego, they've got an interesting exhibit that shows all phases of Andean trepanation, including the skulls. They show trepanned skulls and some stone blades they believe were used in trepanation. They also show skulls from people killed by cogwheel maces, and some of the mace heads, such as Lemmy has. The wounds in the skulls matched the shapes of the cog points. So, yes, those cogwheel maces were used in battle. Trepanning (cutting a hole in the skull) looks like it was used as a way to repair the damage from a mace blow (among other things). The surgeon would cut around the impacted area and remove them the bone fragments, basically as a way of getting the dent out. Apparently it worked occasionally. As an aside, one of the cogwheel mace heads at the museum even had a spoke shaped into an axe blade. As I recall, they also had stone cogwheel heads on display. Stone or metal, it's a good design. Best, F

26th October 2008, 07:20 PM	#6
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi all, here's a good site with lots of good photos of pre-columbian wepons, the mace section has all kinds, including the devastating mace/axe that Fearn mentioned. http://www.precolumbianweapons.com/

26th October 2008, 07:53 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Thank you very much Fearn and Lemmy! Great information and resources. This whole topic is pretty much new to me, and really adds new dimension in understanding weapons of relatively much more recent times. I thought I might have seen those cog wheel forms before, but thought it was in something from India or Asia. It always makes me wonder, why would these mace heads, intended for blunt force attack, have these crenallated edges on a disc? Having seen these outside this context, they almost seem like some ancient machinery (ala Indiana Jones , so why wouldn't they, as maces, just been left smooth? The material on trepanning is really interesting Fearn. It seems amazing that in these primitive times such 'advanced' (or perhaps daring) surgery was even attempted, and even more so that the patients often survived. I really do appreciate the great information you always find. All very best regards, Jim