Re-hilted Bayonet?

[Gonzalo G]

It is a facón, a knife from Argentina. It is usually made with a discarded bayonet blade. Please see this article:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

I would say from 1940 to 1960.

Regards

Gonzalo

[Rick]

Yes, sanding would help; but then you have to go through quite a few different grits to get a decent finish .
A figure 8 or circular sanding pattern will take the scratches out quickest; then finish with lengthwise strokes .

[Robert]

Gonzalo, Thank you very much for identifying this as a Argentine facón for me as well as giving me an idea as to its age. Also my thanks for the great link that you posted which is not only very informative but also shows such beautiful examples of the different knives used by the gauchos.
Rick, My thanks for your advice on how to help restore the damage done to the blade on this. When I get time to do the work needed I will post new pictures hopefully showing it in better condition.
On another note, when I bought this the seller said that he thought that he had the leather scabbard for it and if he could find it he would call me. Well, he called today and is going to mail it out to me tomorrow.

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

It is a facón, a knife from Argentina. It is usually made with a discarded bayonet blade. Please see this article:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

I would say from 1940 to 1960.

Regards

Gonzalo

Hi Gonzalo,

It certainly would have fitted in with Brazil, Uruguay or Argentina, but how did you narrow it down to 1940-60? By that time facons were completely obsolete, unless as a film prop.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Chris, I said Argentina and gave a making period because of the style and the apparent age. Neverthless, the facones are continously made to this day, and people purchase them, and I don´t mean tourists, but argentineans. On the Armas Blancas Forum many bladesmiths show their new facones and puñales criollos recently produced. It seems that you have the idea that those argentinean knives are a lost tradition, but it is completely the opposite. I don´t know if they use this knives only on special festivals with their traditional dress, or as everybody says on Argentina, they still use them on some places to work, but the production of this knives has never been stopped. On the contrary, they seem to be very popular. Airon even make and sells bayonet-like blades in Argentina just to be mounted in the traditional ways by silversmiths and other professional "blade mounters". Some people still purchases old bayonets or make their own blades for this purpose. You should see the intense activity of traditional knife making in Argentina just looking the silversmiths and bladesmiths web pages and forums. Please see this recent thread:

http://www.armasblancas.com.ar/foros...e-gennaro.html

I don´t know if you can see the photos without registering, but you can register and look for yourself this activity.

Of course, the facon could be brazilian, but on the 20th Century the styles have been modernized and mixed from mutual influences, so you can´t be 100% certain of the origin, uness known provenance or the presence of markings which gives a positive identification. Today, any argentinean bladesmith can use any style they like (or to the customer preferences) to make a specific facón.
Regards

Gonzalo

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Please see this recent thread:

http://www.armasblancas.com.ar/foros...e-gennaro.html

I don´t know if you can see the photos without registering, but you can register and look for yourself this activity.

Thank you Gonzalo, very interesting! link works with most photos without registering, but secondry links to non directly displayed photos do require registration.

Spiral

[Gonzalo G]

I hope the photo of the facón on page 2 of the thread can be seen. It is the third and last photo of this page.
Regards

Gonzalo

[spiral]

Yes its visible. Its Hosted at Tinypic, Here...

http://i38.tinypic.com/2qdo7er.jpg

Its just the forum hosted pics that cant be seen without membership.

Spiral

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

It is important to understand that the long facon, as currently defined, was a knife that was essential to the gauchos of old to hunt and slaughter the wild cattle and horses of the pampas, on which the subsisted. Because of its length and general shape, it had little or no application for more mundane tasks, left to smaller knives, as reflected by edicts of Rosas ( a long term ruler of Argentina to the mid 19th century) re banning facons from his estancias, but allowing the "puñal/cuchillo", a variant of the butcher's knife, because it was a necessary and thus legitimate tool.

Nomadic true gauchos, not the glorified rural labourers who later sequestred the name, those who roamed the pampas (flat grasslands) as free men and lived of wild cattle never amounted to a large population. Historians estimating that their numbers in 1797, in what is now the Buenos Aires province to a mere 8,000. To be sure the pampas took in more than that province, but even so, in their totality, they did not add up to more than a few tens of thousands. And outside of the pampas there were no gauchos.

So from this we can see that those who used and needed facons were few. And with the eventual demise of the wild cattle and horse population, absolutely essential to sustain the gaucho's life style, which was becoming evident by the early decades of the 19th century, if not earlier, the gaucho, his mode of living and facon were very much on the vane. After the revolutionary war of independence from Spain, the gaucho was outlawed, for practical considerations ceased to exists as a free man and was reduced to an agricultural labourer on the estancias of the oligarchy that ruled the land. Some became "montoneros" ( mounted gangs) and a few drifted to the remotest corners of the pampas to live on as before, but their era was largely over, and with it that of the facon.

From that point on, the long bladed facon was looked upon as a weapon, with no utilitarian application and for this reason rarely tolerated. In daily usage, it was replaced by the "puñal/cuchillo" and that was and is the knife most used in the region to this day.

Nevertheless, large "puñals" were colloquially often referred to as facons right into modern times, and this accounts for the mistaken impression that their use continued, which did not. We must remember that the strict classification/nomenclaturization of the various bladed ware of the region was something that was implemented in the 20th century and was brought about by historians and curators.

With the rise of the landed oligarchy came a need for status symbols and this accounts for the ornate silver furnitured bladeware that these days is attributed to the gauchos. Most facons, especially the better made and lavishly silver mounted ones belonged to estancia owners, their overseers, military men and leaders of montoneros - Though I hasten to concede that coarsely made silver decorated knives were owned by even the indians and not a few better heeled workers, especially in the second half of the 19th century.

From the above we can see that by the 20th century, the facon became a dress item to be worn of festive occassions and or being displayed as a conversation piece. Having spent not an inconsiderable amount of time in Sth America, I can assure everybody that anyone who would tuck a facon into their belt, save on dress parades and such like events, would be laughed off as a "fanfarron" (boastful poser), and this was true forty five yeras ago, as it is today.

In the 1940-60 period, the vast majority of traditional knives made in Argentina were either basic utilitarian or very ornate silver or German silver mounted "puñales/cuchillos" to be worn as dress accessories. To be sure, in recent times there has been a renaissance of traditional knife making in Argentina and imitation/replica facons are being made anew. But these are collectors items, very much like modern high end Spanish navajas, the blade shape and length precluding any practical application - We have to remember that wild cattle are no longer hunted from horseback in the old fashioned way with knives and lances.

Re Robert's knife: Not being an expert of bayonets, I cannot identify the age and provenance of the blade, though it appears to have been made in the 2nd half of the 19th century - Perhaps another forumite can help us here. Also, we have to remember that re-hilted bayonets and broken sword blades were not exclusive to Sth America, so this particular example could have come from other regions. However, the general appearance of the piece suggests a much earlier date than that of the mid 1900s.

Something else, a 20" blade is rather long for a facon, though by no means rare. Long facons were difficult and uncomfortable to wear in the traditional manner and as such were pinned under the saddle and thus commonly called "facon caronero" (saddle facon). To facilitate their carriage and drawing, they were generally mounted without a substantial hand-guard. So, a large facon fitted with a large hand-guard was definitely uncommon.

The handguard is untypical of those peculiar to Sh America - Its general shape fits, but not is construction which suggests having been cast or even forged, a mode of manufacture alien to the region until modern times, though not to Europe.

It may or may not be of Sth American provenance and if it did indeed come from the general region, who would have used it and for what purpose? Its rather elegant but Spartan appearance , is inconsistent with the typical silver embellishments that an ostentatious estanciero would have demanded, so that leaves us with perhaps a military man's sidearm. Of course, it could be no more than a curiosity made by a cutler for his own amusement, or as a film prop, out of bits and pieces - It is hard to say from the pictures, but the edge of the blade appears to have seen little use. And the handle appears more substantial than what can be generally obtained from cattle horn - More like Buffalo. So, to me it remains a mystery piece.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Chris, your assumptions are:
1-. The facón belonged only to the gauchos, to make certain jobs
2.- There was no gauchos time ago
3.- There was no need of facones and they were forbidden
4.- So, the facones dissapeared with the gauchos and the rest are false

But, to begin with, and as the specialists says, there were not knives exclusive to the gauchos, but for all the population who demanded or needed them. The general idea of a gaucho knive is one of the typical romatic ideas of an idealized figure, sustained by foreigners. The facón was also used to butcher all kinds of livestock and it is usefull for the same purpose today, for all the people which has small amounts of animals and kill them for their own consumption. It is also widely used to kill or finish off a hunt prey, as the traditional hunting of boars and other animals with dogs is commonly practised. And though the facón is not ideally suited for other tasks, it is also used to perform them. Today, the facon is not forbidden on the countryside as far I understand, but prohibitions never were a consideration for our peoples in Latin America, where the good politicians and government man were the first ones to break the law, and the insufficiency of police numbers was inadecuate to cover big extensions of land. Colonialism and neo-colonialism has not embedded a great respect for the law.

True, this facón is big, but this was not a rare thing among the facones, and the special way they were carried, crossed alongide their backs under the belts, did not impede movements. The facón can be on the limits of it´s size, but the caroneros were bigger, and made with discarded sword and sabre blades. Yes, curved blades. I suppose you read and saw the big facones on the Domenech´s article. Bayonets of this size were carried by many thousand of mens on foot on the wars all over Europe and America during decades. Yes, it can be an impeding weapon in certain circumstances, but neverthless it can be usefull.

I celebrate that you have learned so much during your travels to Latin America, as to make so many asseverations, but your idea is completely alien to the facts of our practices and traditions, as far I can see. For example, you say that the spanish navaja is not used anymore. Certainly, you are thinking in the big ones, more bigger than 30cm when open. But the spanish navaja is it not exclusively the big one. It is not defined by the size, but by other stylistic and constructive features. It came in all sizes and maybe is the source of all the actual folders. And it is made and used very profusely in this days, by many people. Me, for instance. You can check this point with the portuguese and spanish forumites, on this same forum. On other thread, you also said that the puñal criollo was not used anymore. I didn´t want to discuss your beliefs on that moment, but now I also tell you that the puñal criollo (and not gaucho), is often used by the argentineans.

It is not a matter of any revival. Maybe the war and other civil conflicts in Argentina have slowed the production, or the use, of some crafts, as they also slowed other economic areas. Military dictators are always paranoic and nervous about wepons on the hands of the civil population, even about kives. It is not a matter of order and public security (yet they use this argument), but fear of the people. And maybe your personal experiences comes form the times of the military dictadorship over there, when the things were completely different, I don´t know. But the production of this weapons has never stopped, and even if collectors purchase big caroneros, there are still other which are used, NOT in the saddle, as they do not use saddles, but recados. And why should they be called "replicas", if they are made in the interior of a national tradition, by argentinean mounters or bladesmiths who´s fathers did the same? Can we say that the modern bowies are "replicas" only to show and useless big knives, unconfortable to use and carry? In a certain way, they are, but still, they are also usefull, and a living and uninterrupted tradition. The same can be said of the khukri. There is nothing idealistic on it.

Re: Robert´s facón. The handguard is forged, typical of a facón made from the second third of the 20th Century. Not uncommon.
Spartan, as many serviceable and not ornamental facones. Not unusual.
With a dull edge, as it was common on the soft steel of a bayonet used many times. Or in a facón used to kill only with the point, as was usual in the killing of livestock and hunting prey, mainly form the countryside people.
Hilt made with horn, which is VERY common on the argentinean knives. The general form of the hilt is modern, I would say (and I can be mistaken) from the 40´s era. You can see many photos on new and not much old facones from the 20th Century made in this way on the same forum. Please see, read and check for yourself. And apart from Domenech searches, I can´t find any other published work valid on this subject, as other readings I have seen are not very well informed, contain false assumptions or idealize the gauchos and the argentine history, which is learnt from third parties and not from primary sources or direct experience.

Regards

Gonzalo

[Royston]

I agree with Chris Evans that the bayonet is probably from the 2nd half of the 19th century. It appears that bayonets with Yataghan blades were fashionable in many countries for several decades.

What I would like to know, is which bayonet. I started my collecting "career" with bayonets and had a very large collection. I still have a facination with them although I sold the collection many years ago. I retained all my books and have been looking through them to see if I can identify this blade. So far no luck. I am wondering if anyone else knows what it is.

Looking at the fuller, in particular the shape and the distance from the cross guard I don't think it can be any of the following:-
Austrian 1870, French 1842, French 1866, Portuguese 1885. The end of the fuller looks too square on these.
Possibly the Danish 1867, Turkish 1874 or British 1856 although I don't see how the first 2 would have ended up in South America. The Enfield 1856 may be more of a possiblity as there were a lot of them and they did travel.
Is there an american bayonet that fits? I never collected the older bayonets from the USA as they were not readily available in the UK.

I cannot recall any of the S.American countries using yataghan bayonets butno doubt someone will prove me wrong

Regards
Royston

[Gonzalo G]

Yes, I´ll do it In Argentina was used the rifle Martini Henry with the bayonet named "Patent 1860", which had a recycled blade form older avant loaded or front charged models (I don´t recall the name of this kind of weapons). Even in latter replacements of this bayonet for the argentinean army, it was used a copy made by Alex Copel, who also made a replacement of the model named "Elcho".

But it seems to be a misunderstanding here. We are not talking about the blade of the bayonet, but about the facón made with this blade. It is not the same thing. The age of the blade only proofs that the facón was not made earlier, but not that the facón was made in the same era. The facones were made with DISCARDED bayonets, who were first used on the armies of Argentina, Brazil or Uruguay, usually models already discarded form european or USA armies when this Latin American countries recived them as new, and then when discarded in this countries, stored on the military warehouses for years, to be sold latter on wholesale, and latter in reatail by the new owners to the silversmiths and other specialist in mounting them.

So, the facones could be made with bayonets with several decades of age. Even today, very old bayonets are searched to make facones. Personally, I wouldn´t do it, as a bayonet is a piece of collection with it´s own merit, but the silversmiths can make a big deal on money mounting and selling them. It is their tradition.

Neverthless, I agree with Chris in one point: the main (but not exclusive, as on the Argentina´s northeast area it is still used as a weapon and a tool) use of the facón nowadays, is to show with the traditional dress. Sometimes also to show richness, as the best silver mounts could be very costly. And the best ones are mounted with the older and better blades available. We cannot criticize this practice, as here, the most searched swords are the most luxurious and ornamentated ones, showing the richness and power of the original owners.

You can see a discussion about the ACTUAL mounting of a bayonet-yataghan blade form the 19th Century, to make a facón, in this thread:

http://www.armasblancas.com.ar/foros...ble-curvo.html

I´m afraid the photos can only be seen with a previous registration.
Regards

Gonzalo