Polish Hussar wings, used in battle or not?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

As always, another fascinating thread from Jim!

BTW What kind of harpoon DID Captain Ahab use on the Great White Whale, Moby Dick?

Anyhow I have found a few pictures of these "Winged Hussars." Might help promote conversation.

Thanks so much Bill!!! Great illustrations which really do capture the pageantry and fantastic appearance of these cavalrymen. I do hope others find the history of these hussars as interesting as I do.


BTW....Bill, you know me too well. You know I could never watch that movie "Moby Dick" without asking that exact question!!!
Since Melville's Captain Ahab and his quest for the great white whale was based on New England whalers of about late 1830's they would have been using the single flue (barb) type harpoon, but by the time the book was published in 1851, the iron toggle type came in !!

We really did have a thread on this just last year I couldnt resist.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Well Bill, looks like the pictures didn't bring in any takers......not even my Moby Dick harpoon story
Must be somebody else out there who's wondered about these winged cavalry!!

[Bill M]

Well, I like them!

This should stir your chili (and some others also!) Watc this!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6aK2_4XI-E

Looks like one of the attackers is wielding a landsknecht sword one handed! Maybe he got it from a defeated German, or did the Poles have these swords also?

See the defending pikes bounce off the horse's gorget?

Pause the beginning quote and read it through out loud!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbM16...eature=related

and get the movie
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072021/

[Jim McDougall]

Wow! That is stirring allright!!! (understatement).
I had no idea these winged hussars were ever portrayed in a movie, and these images along with the music were incredible....adrenalin+++
Thank you so much Bill.

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Cool links Bill

Hi Jim ,
the Japanese horsemen often had a banner attached to their backs ....for identification purposes. They tended to be 'light' cavalry and many accounts of their battles describe that after the initial charge, fighting on horseback tended to end up in 'dog fights' ( the aerial type ...not canine ) Because of this ....rapid ID'ing of horsemen was essential to prevent 'friendly fire'.
My understanding is that the Hussars fought in similar manner ....using tactics 'learned' from their battles with 'Eastern' neighbours, many of which were traditionally excellent horseman. These tactics also did very well against 'Western' opponents...whom were unfamiliar with these strategies.

I suspect there are several reasons for the wings...they are impressive , giving more height to the rider, obscuring the view of those being 'charged' (making it difficult to estimate the number coming towards you..... making it difficult to make quick, counter/defensive decisions) and 'rapid' identification of the riders.

A nice touch is the fact the wings tended to be made from eagle feathers (an important icon of the area).

Kind Regards David

[Bill M]

"We saw it .... the Hussars let loose their horses. God, what power! They ran through the smoke and the sound was like that of a thousand blacksmiths beating with a thousand hammers.

We saw it ...Jesus Maria! The elite's lances bent forward like stalks of rye, driven by a great storm, bent on glory! The fire of the guns before them glitters! They rush on to the Swedes! They clash into the Swedish riders ... Overwhelm them! They crash into the second regiment -- Overwhelmed!

Resistance collapses, dissolves, they move forward as easily as if they were parading on a grand boulevard. They sliced through the whole army already! Next target: the regiment of horse guards, where stands the Swedish King Carol.

And the guard already wavers!"

Description from "Potop "Deluge" by Henryk Sienkiewicz.

We need an icon for "shivers!"

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

"We saw it .... the Hussars let loose their horses. God, what power! They ran through the smoke and the sound was like that of a thousand blacksmiths beating with a thousand hammers.

We saw it ...Jesus Maria! The elite's lances bent forward like stalks of rye, driven by a great storm, bent on glory! The fire of the guns before them glitters! They rush on to the Swedes! They clash into the Swedish riders ... Overwhelm them! They crash into the second regiment -- Overwhelmed!

Resistance collapses, dissolves, they move forward as easily as if they were parading on a grand boulevard. They sliced through the whole army already! Next target: the regiment of horse guards, where stands the Swedish King Carol.

And the guard already wavers!"

Description from "Potop "Deluge" by Henryk Sienkiewicz.

We need an icon for "shivers!"

Bill, you are indeed a true romantic!!! and the images of the film clip you linked, along with these quoted passages evoke almost indescribable emotion, which even 'shivers' barely touches!!!
Amazing! and thank you for sharing them.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by katana

Cool links Bill

Hi Jim ,
the Japanese horsemen often had a banner attached to their backs ....for identification purposes. They tended to be 'light' cavalry and many accounts of their battles describe that after the initial charge, fighting on horseback tended to end up in 'dog fights' ( the aerial type ...not canine ) Because of this ....rapid ID'ing of horsemen was essential to prevent 'friendly fire'.
My understanding is that the Hussars fought in similar manner ....using tactics 'learned' from their battles with 'Eastern' neighbours, many of which were traditionally excellent horseman. These tactics also did very well against 'Western' opponents...whom were unfamiliar with these strategies.

I suspect there are several reasons for the wings...they are impressive , giving more height to the rider, obscuring the view of those being 'charged' (making it difficult to estimate the number coming towards you..... making it difficult to make quick, counter/defensive decisions) and 'rapid' identification of the riders.

A nice touch is the fact the wings tended to be made from eagle feathers (an important icon of the area).

Kind Regards David

Thank you David for joining us on this, and for this outstanding addition! I had no idea those Samurai had the banners attached to thier backs. It is fascinating learning of these amazing warriors as well, and trying to imagine the dimension of thier presence.
Nicely done, and thank you for the great illustrations.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by katana

Cool links Bill

Hi Jim ,
the Japanese horsemen often had a banner attached to their backs ....for identification purposes. They tended to be 'light' cavalry and many accounts of their battles describe that after the initial charge, fighting on horseback tended to end up in 'dog fights' ( the aerial type ...not canine ) Because of this ....rapid ID'ing of horsemen was essential to prevent 'friendly fire'.
My understanding is that the Hussars fought in similar manner ....using tactics 'learned' from their battles with 'Eastern' neighbours, many of which were traditionally excellent horseman. These tactics also did very well against 'Western' opponents...whom were unfamiliar with these strategies.

I suspect there are several reasons for the wings...they are impressive , giving more height to the rider, obscuring the view of those being 'charged' (making it difficult to estimate the number coming towards you..... making it difficult to make quick, counter/defensive decisions) and 'rapid' identification of the riders.

A nice touch is the fact the wings tended to be made from eagle feathers (an important icon of the area).

Kind Regards David

Hi David,
I wanted to thank you again for your as usual, most astute, inclusion of this example of tall, mounted objects in the form of banners, by Japanese Samurai in this discussion.
While we seem to have agreed that the use of the Polish hussar wings in battle was unlikely, I think your example of the use of these banners seems to the contrary, and these banners were indeed used.

The point of preventing 'friendly fire' is also an important topic, which evolved into the use of identifying devices, colors or items by troops in battle to accomplish this important feature. From the well discussed heraldry of medieval knights to botanicals used in India and by Scottish clans, to the ultimate development of uniforms worn by armies....including identifying insignia...which brings us back to the Polish Hussars and their more modern use of the wing...this would be interesting to review also.

Perhaps more on the Samurai banners, and of course weaponry would be another great topic here!!

All the best,
Jim

[Bill M]

This deserves a bump!!

[Bill M]

This deserves a bump!!

Oops, accidental double bump!