My first kris :)

[kai]

Hello Bill,

The blade is nicely done.

Note that there's still a little bit of silver inlay attached close to the lower asang-asang. I'm not holding my breath but you may want to try etching the blade.

It's a copy of what Cato refers to a "18C".

I also think that this is a revival piece - possibly dating from after the Span.-Am. war and before 1930. Certainly not what Cato refers to as 18th c. (the curves are not old style, too) and more likely to be early 20th c.

I'm not sure where it was made The file work in the center looks like Maguindanao or Maranao but elephant's head looks more Sulu.

The pics are not taken from directly above - I believe the blade is Maguindanao indeed.

The blade is older then the hilt. You can see where the old baca-baca (stirrup) once was.

Yes, IMHO they recycled an older pommel and added the flashy grip section (done in Marawi?). Also the asang-asang are not attached correctly.

If this would be my piece, I'd be tempted to tear the hilt apart, to attach the asang-asang correctly, to add a plain silver ferrule, and to try my hands at a decent grip wrapping.

Your ivory pommel is different & perhaps made earlier then the 60's, hard to say.

They are often artificially aged. However, the carving seems to be good quality on this one; I wouldn't be surprised if it had the same age as the blade.

For the most part, I think the coins in the scabbard are also most common in 1960's work & latter. The rattan looks older then that but I've also seen quite a few scabbards made in the 60's that are similar.

Coming out of the Philippines, the scabbard can't be too old for such a piece: Post-WW2 but there's always the chance that it may have been done "yesterday"...

BTW, some of the blades coming out of the Philippines nowadays show a surface hinting at laminations but are apparently monosteel. They have separate gangya but I suspect that they may be newly done and etched. It was already known that blades with separate gangya continue to be produced for local use; the blades mentioned seem to be a response to the foreign collectors' market though.

Regards,
Kai

[Bill]

Hi Kai, The stirrup on mine is nonfunctional, it is held in place by the hilt. Miguel's stirrups & mine look like the work of the same craftsman.
While some/much of the work in this time period was likely for high end consumers, it's not tourist quality or even meant as a high end souvenir.
Look at the dust cover on Moro Swords. I believe it to be from the time period, 1960's & similar craftsmanship. While these swords may not have been intended for battle, I believe they were meant for local use as dress swords or even gift/presentation. For that reason, I would not consider replacing the hilt/dress. Besides, the quality of work is really good. Some tourist pieces have the same look but no where the quality.
Sadly the sheath does give it a tourist feel but it also is likely "legit", IMO, as a example of the 1960's. While we likely will never know, it is very plausible this sword/sheath was worn, just like it is. IMO, it makes the whole package ethnographic.
The blade in my small sword is not the center piece but it is razor sharp & certainly could be used as a weapon.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

While these swords may not have been intended for battle, I believe they were meant for local use as dress swords or even gift/presentation. For that reason, I would not consider replacing the hilt/dress. Besides, the quality of work is really good.

Well, I still feel that the blade deserves better than that "ferrule" and grip.

While the whole ensemble may have been worn by a Moro (I kinda doubt it - the grip looks very new; what's the whitish stuff beneath?), the work just isn't up to the old standards. Obviously, a lot of traditional skills got lost and people seem to have focused on flashy features. It may be genuine for late 20th c. Moro culture - it falls short of traditional Moro culture though, I guess...

Regards,
Kai

[Bill]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Bill,


Obviously, a lot of traditional skills got lost and people seem to have focused on flashy features. It may be genuine for late 20th c. Moro culture - it falls short of traditional Moro culture though, I guess...

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kia, I guess that by mid 20thC the "traditional" warrior culture was going through a dramatic change in weapons & the wearing of swords was shifting in populous areas to limited special events or even wall hangers. So one would expect to see the flash & not the wear.

Hi Miguel. I've always enjoyed Manila & might take you up on your offer someday. By the way, we innocently use the word "Moro", coined from the book written by Robert Cato.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Bill

By the way, we innocently use the word "Moro", coined from the book written by Robert Cato.

So do they .
http://eprints.qut.edu.au/archive/00003494/

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Bill

Hi Miguel. I've always enjoyed Manila & might take you up on your offer someday. By the way, we innocently use the word "Moro", coined from the book written by Robert Cato.

Originally Posted by Rick

So do they .
http://eprints.qut.edu.au/archive/00003494/

Hi Bill,

I'm serious If you'll be in town just send me a note in advance and let's continue talking about ethnic blades over a good restaurant in Makati (the prime business district).

Hello Rick,

Thanks too for that note on the use of the word "Moro".

Actually when we were kids (am in my mid-40s now), our parents told us never to use that word to refer to our Muslim brothers in the south. It's supposed to be derogatory.

But recently and as you pointed out, it doesn't have that connotation anymore.

Like the secessionist Muslims in Mindanao used to call themselves the Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF). More recently, the organization is called MILF, in which the "M" refers to "Moro" again I think ... and yes, I know that in the US the latter acronym stands for something less altruistic!

[Gonzalo G]

Yes, it means "Moro Islamic Liberation Front"....
Regards

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Yes, it means "Moro Islamic Liberation Front"....
Regards

Hello Gonzalo,

Thanks. And the Muslims in Mindanao also call themselves (and their homeland) "Bangsamoro".

"Bangsa" in Malay ("bansa" in Tagalog) means homeland or nation. So yes, "Moro" has been adapted by the Mindanao Muslims as the preferred term to describe themselves and their homeland.

Regards.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

I guess that by mid 20thC the "traditional" warrior culture was going through a dramatic change in weapons & the wearing of swords was shifting in populous areas to limited special events or even wall hangers. So one would expect to see the flash & not the wear.

Yes, although I'm inclined to think of this as a downhill trend due to colonial powers and decadence rather than being the expression of a continuously developing culture. Much of the skills seem to have been lost after the Span.-Am. war and, especially, during the early 20th c. After WW2 there seems to have been a wave of flashy innovations regarding dress and souvenir items.

It's interesting to note though that kris were used in guerilla warfare well into the 1970s (or 80s?) which makes them one of the last traditional swords utilized in modern times...

Regards,
Kai

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Bill

I guess that by mid 20thC the "traditional" warrior culture was going through a dramatic change in weapons & the wearing of swords was shifting in populous areas to limited special events or even wall hangers. So one would expect to see the flash & not the wear.

Hi Bill,

I agree of course with your observation.

Occasionally however, blade combat still happens in the battlefield, at least in Mindanao.

I myself found it strange, but please see this blog article .

On the pic [below] showing the soldier [one Sgt. Prado] holding a kris and a "ginunting", a commenter said:

"The kris pictured was one captured from a rebel who went blade to blade fighting with Sgt. Prado and lost not only his kris but his life to the [Phil. Marines Force] Recon Panday [bladesmith] meaning this man not only makes the Blade but has used it in modern day combat and in a Blade to blade duel with the spoils going to the victor. The Ginunting you have pictured is the recon version whose evolution was created from the tests of true combat. it is quite different than the civilian type Ginunting ..."

I don't personally know Sgt. Prado but I have friends who know him. Apparently he is well known here in the Philippines.

Makes me just wonder how exactly such sword fights transpire. Like did they both ran out of bullets first and then a challenge was made? Or was it spontaneous? It's for sure a very intriguing event.

And I also wonder how often such sword battles happen in the battlefield say in present day Mindanao

[Bill]

Hi Miguel,
Interesting kris the marine has. It looks like it has 2 guards & is a watered blade. No idea about his contest, if it is PR stunt or was a real event. I do know that there is a code in some places in the PI where sword duels or assassinations with a sword have some acceptance where use of a firearm would not be acceptable. Apparently retaliation (code) limited to means of prior incident.
Yes there is no doubt that the US military & varies general instructions & eventually the executive order in 1911 of disarmament changed a good generation or two of the Moro traditions.
While I doubt swords (manufacture/use) totally disappeared, their revival after WWII was altered. Where a farmer or someone in a remote village would be concerned about a blade for functions of both work & a weapon, a city person would be more concerned about a symbol of present status. I'd consider both ethnographic & each a part of history. While we generally consider "WWII" blades as cerimonial, I'd also guess that a few of them settled disagreements.
The commercial aspect has been around since the Spanish but post WWII also saw a explosion in tourist items. Plenty of raw materials (damaged/abandoned equipment) and plenty of customers (service men), who didn't spend enough time, in the PI, to know the genuine items.
So there is a blur between ethnographic & tourist. Some is blatant, while some, as can be seen in the present posts, is a personal opinion.

[Bill]

Here is a link to some great photos by Bobby Timonera. He posts here occasionally, so maybe he will comment.

http://www.pbase.com/timonera/tugaya&page=all

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Bill

Hi Miguel,
Interesting kris the marine has ...

Hi Bill,

Thanks for those insights on that reported sword duel, among other thoughts you shared to us.

Thanks also for the link on Bobby Timonera's photos. I've heard too about that place (Tugaya) where there's a lot of craftsmen doing the tourist pieces. I should definitely check that out one of these days ... with the objective of stumbling into a real antique piece in one of the shops there.